Undergrad Does the Photon Play a Crucial Role in Quantum Mechanics?

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The photon is essential in quantum mechanics as it serves as the quantum of the electromagnetic field and mediates electromagnetic interactions. Experimental evidence for its existence is clear, as photons are detected as discrete particles when light is observed. While some discussions question the necessity of photons, particularly in hypothetical scenarios involving single particles, the consensus is that photons are integral to quantum electrodynamics (QED) and cannot be dismissed as mere bookkeeping tools. They ensure causality and locality in interactions, which are crucial for understanding phenomena like fluorescence and the photoelectric effect. Overall, photons are recognized as real particles that play a fundamental role in the framework of quantum theory.
  • #31
gentzen said:
Is this a special property of "photons"?
Only in the sense of which field.

gentzen said:
Or are all bosons "configurations of some suitable field"?
Yes.

gentzen said:
And what about fermions?
Yes.

(Note that all of the above answers are given in the context of QFT.)

gentzen said:
At least for Bohmian mechanics
Which is not QFT. It is either an interpretation of non-relativistic QM, or (in its more ambitious formulations) an attempt to extend that interpretation into an actual competing theory, which, however, is still non-relativistic, and is therefore considered a non-starter by most physicists (though not all--at least one PF regular, @Demystifier, has published papers defending the view that Lorentz invariance is only an emergent symmetry and that we will end up finding that there is an underlying theory that works more like non-relativistic Bohmian mechanics).
 
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  • #32
neobaud said:
Why do you need the photon?
Without it momentum and energy are not locally conserved. That would be problematic
 
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  • #33
gentzen said:
Even classically, we talk about the electromagnetic field instead of saying that a particle here interacts with a particle there. So the question should rather be whether we favor photons over configurations of an electromagnetic field to just keep things local.

I read in "Do We Really Understand Quantum Mechanics?" by Franck Laloë that a version of Bohmian mechanics using field configuration trajectories for the electromagnetic field and particle trajectories for Fermions (with stochastic creation and annihilation events) works actually quite well. One of the main drawbacks of Bohmian mechanics (including this version) is its non-locality, so the answer to the adjusted question about keeping things local could actually be yes, in a certain sense.
This is really important. The point of introducing the field-point of view about interactions is the causality structure of relativistic spacetime, which leads to the fact that space-like separated events cannot be in a cause-effect relation. Opertionally that implies that there's no propagation of causal effects faster than light.

The field-point of view realizes this notion of the relativistic causality structure in the simple way that all interactions are local, i.e., the entire dynamics of a relativsitic (quantum) system is described in terms of local (quantum) fields. There's no notion of point particles on a foundational point of view.

It's easy to understand, why this solves the problem of action-at-a-distance theories as are the paradigm of Newtonian mechanics: For action-at-a-distance models for point particles within relativistic theory it's impossible that the momentum-conservation law may hold, but it should hold since Minkowski space of special relativity assumes the symmetry of the dynamical laws under spatial translations, and the corresponding conserved quantum theory a la Noether is momentum. In a local (Q)FT that's no problem since the fields are themselves dynamical degrees of freedom which carry momentum (as well as energy and angular momentum), and the conservation laws hold locally.

A formal way to see this is the fact that demanding that there's a relativistic Hamiltonian theory of classical point particles leads to the conclusion that this can only be fulfilled for non-interacting point particles.

The particle aspect comes into the game that in local QFT asymptotic free Fock states describe field excitations that behave in some sense like free relativistic particles. Particularly when preparing a single-particle asymptotic free Fock state it can be detected only once in a local interaction with a detector, leaving a "point-like trace" (think, e.g., in terms of a pixel detector, where a single electron always leaves one and only one spot). What's really observable according to QFT are space-time dependent probabilities for detecting "a particle" in this sense, and these probabilities are usually given in terms of expectation values of correlation functions that describe some kind of local density or a current density.

Photons are particularly special. They have no non-relativistic limit. Among other things that's due to the fact that as massless spin-1 particles one cannot construct a position observable from the representation theory of the Poincare group, i.e., photons cannot in any way be completely localized. That's easy to understand in the field picture: If you want to enclose the electromagnetic field within a region of space time all you can do is to create a cavity which is in as good an approximation as possible an ideal conductor, such that all em. radiation is reflected on the walls without energy loss. Then you learn in kindergarden that the corresponding eigenmodes of the electromagnetic field describe fields that are spread out over the entire volume of the cavity. There's no better way you can "localize" the em. field.

For massive particles you have at least a position operator, but even then if you try to localize particles, this you can do also only by somehow "confining them" in a "cavity" like a Penning trap for charged particles. The better you try to localize the particle in such a way the stronger em. fields you must impose, and at some point the involved energy transfers between these fields and the particle are so large that you rather create new particles (in accordance with the conservation laws) like in electron-positron pair creation, and it's impossible to distinguish the original particle from these other particles, particularly if you create particles of the same kind as this one. So even for massive particles, the localizability is constrained even more than within non-relativistic QM, where you also have the Heisenberg uncertainty relation between position and momentum (which you also have in relativistic QFT since the space-translation group is a subgroup of the space-time-symmetry group in both cases, and position operators are defined as obeying the usual commutation relations with the momentum operators, which generate spatial translations).

The problem with de Broglie-Bohm reinterpretations of the quantum formalism indeed is its non-local nature, which is at odds with the very foundations of local relativistic QFTs although there are some attempts in the literature that try do remedy this difficulty.

In my opinion, there's no need for such reinterpretations, because the probabilistic interpretation of the quantum state in the sense of the minimal statistical interpretation (Einstein, Ballentine,...) describes all observations very well, avoiding any confusing, unnecessary philosophical ballast which is just introduce to prevent people to admit that the classical, deterministic worldview suggested by our experience with macroscopic objects, simply is not the way Nature can be adequately described on a fundamental level. It's rather an emergent phenomenon, which is pretty well understood in terms of quantum many-body theory.
 
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  • #34
Dale said:
Without it momentum and energy are not locally conserved. That would be problematic
Hey Dale. I am wondering why not transfer the energy/momentum between the two particles directly? Why do we need something to travel between them?
 
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  • #35
neobaud said:
Why do we need something to travel between them?
Google "Einstein Rings"
 
  • #36
What does "directly" mean?
This is not a new thought and does not seem to be the way things work.
 
  • #37
PeterDonis said:
Sure: the fact that whenever you detect sufficiently faint light, you detect it as discrete particles
That's ok as long as all participants of this thread are aware that the word "particle`" doesn't imply that it's like other particles that have mass and that have a properly defined position and extent. Between being produced and being detected, the photon is no way like a little bullet (or even a big one). The photon is a quantum of energy or momentum.

The "wave / particle duality" idea is often dismissed, in a superior way, on PF but it's a very good way into an understanding about what's happening, even if there are better pictures of it. It's a good expression which prepared a newcomer to the fact that things are going to get harder for the student.
 
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  • #38
Let me ask it like this. If I were able to track all of the energy of all the matter in the universe, would it decrease over time because it is radiated away by photons? Have there been experiments like this that are more practical?
 
  • #39
If we are straying into cosmology, look up the CMBR.
 
  • #40
neobaud said:
I am wondering why not transfer the energy/momentum between the two particles directly?
That is not feasible.

One particle loses momentum and energy, then some time later a different particle gains momentum and energy. During that intervening time where is the momentum and energy?

It is in the photon. If you get rid of the photon then you get rid of momentum and energy conservation. They change, and then change back. That is not conservation. You simply cannot get rid of photons and keep momentum and energy conservation.
 
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  • #41
Dale said:
That is not feasible.

One particle loses momentum and energy, then some time later a different particle gains momentum and energy. During that intervening time where is the momentum and energy?

It is in the photon. If you get rid of the photon then you get rid of momentum and energy conservation. They change, and then change back. That is not conservation. You simply cannot get rid of photons and keep momentum and energy conservation.
Good to see that the comment #40 closes the loop with the comment #2 :smile:
 
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  • #42
Dale said:
That is not feasible.

One particle loses momentum and energy, then some time later a different particle gains momentum and energy. During that intervening time where is the momentum and energy?

It is in the photon. If you get rid of the photon then you get rid of momentum and energy conservation. They change, and then change back. That is not conservation. You simply cannot get rid of photons and keep momentum and energy conservation.
Thanks Dale. This is the one response that actually addresses my question.
 
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  • #43
Several posts have been removed. Please keep things polite and professional
 
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  • #44
sophiecentaur said:
That's ok as long as all participants of this thread are aware that the word "particle`" doesn't imply that it's like other particles that have mass and that have a properly defined position and extent. Between being produced and being detected, the photon is no way like a little bullet (or even a big one). The photon is a quantum of energy or momentum.
The meaning of the word "particle" in the relativistic + quantum realm is pretty subtle indeed. If you insist on an intuitive picture of a photon you are almost always better off to think in terms of an electromagnetic wave. Only when it's detected the specific nature of this single-quantum Fock state becomes important, i.e., it can be either detected at the position of the detector as a whole, or it isn't detected at all.
sophiecentaur said:
The "wave / particle duality" idea is often dismissed, in a superior way, on PF but it's a very good way into an understanding about what's happening, even if there are better pictures of it. It's a good expression which prepared a newcomer to the fact that things are going to get harder for the student.
It's the worst idea to impose wrong/outdated ideas in the very beginning of teaching a new subject. What's learnt first about a subject will be rembered best, and if you best remember a misconception, it's not a good thing. To get rid of such misconceptions is very difficult. There are some narratives, which should be completely avoided. In introductory QM it's "wave-particle duality" and the "Bohr-Sommerfeld model of atoms". If you want to start in a historical way, then the story should start with Born, Jordan, Schrödinger, and Dirac in 1925.
 
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  • #45
Dale said:
That is not feasible.

One particle loses momentum and energy, then some time later a different particle gains momentum and energy. During that intervening time where is the momentum and energy?

It is in the photon. If you get rid of the photon then you get rid of momentum and energy conservation. They change, and then change back. That is not conservation. You simply cannot get rid of photons and keep momentum and energy conservation.
This sounds more like the description of a virtual photon. Although, it could also describe spectroscopy.

The deeper question of why charged particles are coupled to an electromagnetic field takes us to local gauge invariance.
 
  • #46
Instead of "photon" say "electromagnetic field". Then everything becomes clear.
 
  • #47
PeroK said:
This sounds more like the description of a virtual photon.
I certainly had not intended it to sound like that.

If an atom at rest in an excited state drops to an unexcited state it emits a real photon, loses internal energy, gains momentum, and gains kinetic energy (but less than the lost internal energy). If you ignore the real photon, both energy and momentum are not conserved.
 
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  • #48
That's indeed a very good example since the desribed "spontaneous emission" if a really generically quantum-field theoretical phenomenon, and that's why QFT was rediscovered by Dirac in 1928 particularly because he was looking for a proper way to describe spontaneous emission. It was discovered by Jordan in 1926, but at this time nobody appreciated it.
 
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  • #49
Hill said:
It propagates with a final speed, and it transfers energy and momentum.
What is the source of the photon's energy and momentum.
 
  • #50
Blurf said:
What is the source of the photon's energy and momentum.
Whatever emitted the photon.
 
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  • #51
This seems to be going pretty far afield.

Photons can be created and the creation describe with well understood questions.
Photons can be absorbed, again with well understood consequences/effects on the environment.
Photons can be counted.

What would be a better definition of "exist"?
 
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  • #52
Vanadium 50 said:
What would be a better definition of "exist"?
Philosophers have been debating that for centuries. As far as I can tell, they don't have a better definition.
 
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  • #53
Dale said:
Philosophers have been debating that for centuries. As far as I can tell, they don't have a better definition.
Doesn't that make this about the right time to close this thread?
 
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  • #54
Vanadium 50 said:
This seems to be going pretty far afield.

Photons can be created and the creation describe with well understood questions.
Photons can be absorbed, again with well understood consequences/effects on the environment.
Photons can be counted.

What would be a better definition of "exist"?
Ya I realize that I didn't do a very good job of framing the question.
 
  • #55
Vanadium 50 said:
This seems to be going pretty far afield.

Photons can be created and the creation describe with well understood questions.
Photons can be absorbed, again with well understood consequences/effects on the environment.
Photons can be counted.

What would be a better definition of "exist"?
I think Dale's answer makes sense for an observer watching the transfer of momentum/energy through the em field. If there was no Photon, they would see energy disappear and then reappear at some later time. This is not allowed.

I was wondering about the perspective of the photon where this problem with the "energy glitch" would not happen. The photon itself never "sees" the disappearance of energy so the photon is really unnecessary. Even if the interaction happened across vast distances of space and time. Seems from one point of view you could say that photons, light and other massless particles aren't involved with events in the universe (events = transfer of momentum and energy).
 
  • #56
neobaud said:
I was wondering about the perspective of the photon where this problem with the "energy glitch" would not happen.
Yes, it would. See below.

neobaud said:
from one point of view you could say that photons, light and other massless particles aren't involved with events in the universe
No, you cannot say that. It's wrong. The fact that the arc length along a photon's worldline is zero does not mean that "photons don't experience time" or that there are not distinct spacetime events along a photon's worldline or that a photon's worldline is not part of the universe. If the photon did not carry energy and momentum from source to emitter, there would be a "gap" in spacetime between them that would cause local non-conservation, even though the arc length along the photon's worldline is zero.
 
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  • #57
PeterDonis said:
Yes, it would. See below.No, you cannot say that. It's wrong. The fact that the arc length along a photon's worldline is zero does not mean that "photons don't experience time" or that there are not distinct spacetime events along a photon's worldline or that a photon's worldline is not part of the universe. If the photon did not carry energy and momentum from source to emitter, there would be a "gap" in spacetime between them that would cause local non-conservation, even though the arc length along the photon's worldline is zero.
Isn't spacetime an emergent property of the universe?

I maintain that massless particles don't experience time. They are incapable of having internal clocks. I don't know why you would argue this point.
 
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  • #58
neobaud said:
I was wondering about the perspective of the photon
There is no "perspective of the photon". Photons don't even have a position operator.

neobaud said:
Seems from one point of view you could say that photons, light and other massless particles aren't involved with events in the universe
That “point of view” doesn’t exist.
 
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  • #59
Dale said:
Philosophers have been debating that for centuries
I pay them as little mind as I can.

To me, the key is countability. "They don't really exist but this box contains four of them" seems nonsensical.
 
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  • #60
Vanadium 50 said:
I pay them as little mind as I can.
Always wise, in my opinion. (Which I realize is itself philosophical, but I don't have to get into a debate about it).
 
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