Drunk person loses leg to passing train

[Gokul43201]

What would you have awarded the plaintiff if you were on the jury (and why)?

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A Manhattan jury awarded $2.33 million to a man who lost his leg after drunkenly stumbling onto the path of an oncoming subway train.
...
The jury ruled Tuesday that Dibble was 35 percent responsible for the accident, so his monetary compensation was also reduced by 35 percent -- from $3,594,943 to $2,336,713.

Presumably, the medical (and other related) expenses came up to ~$3.6 million. Or does that include things like "psychological damage"? (I have no idea)

More here: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/18/drunk.amputee.payout/index.html

 

[russ_watters]

Wow, that's actually a toughie. I'm going to go for the middle...

 

[drankin]

I say nothing. Nobody else should be responsible for anothers stupidity. I hate that our culture is so litigious. With the right lawyer no one is responsible for their own actions any more.

 

[Evo]

It's a subway, the trains go through all of the time, it's not like the train was out wandering the streets.

I voted nothing.

 

[signerror]

More than $3.6M. There needs be heavy punitive damages for the transport authority for their dangerously flawed engineering.

More accessible, intrinsically safe train station:

 

[JasonRox]

Sounds like a fair triel to me.

Subway had enough time to stop. He should have stopped.

If I see a drunk guy jump onto the road, and I'm able to escape this scenario without injury (stopping or changing lanes), then I would do so. I wouldn't run him over, like some people here are implying.

 

[signerror]

While they're at it, NYC might want to take some design tips from the Russians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/KomsomolskayaKL-mm.jpg/800px-KomsomolskayaKL-mm.jpg]

 

[Evo]

Subway had enough time to stop. He should have stopped.

But that is only if the driver was able to see him. just because 'theoretically" the train would have had time to stop based on when the drunk fell and where the train was doesn't matter. How visible was the guy? Was he wearing clothing that blended in with the tracks? I'm assuming from this that the train was not stopping so was going very fast. You have to take into consideration that the driver is human, apparently he didn't see him. At the speed of a subway train, would the driver have had to see the guy at the exact moment he fell in order to stop? At that distance is that realistic?

Obviously the train driver did not see him.

 

[humanino]

There needs be heavy punitive damages for the transport authority for their dangerously flawed engineering.

There are better ways to waste money for public transportations than ensuring drunken people can't throw themselves under trains. Public transportation needs in depth development, especially in the US. I voted nothing.

Next time a person will bypass whatever security system you engineered, because he wanted to commit suicide at that time, how would you feel if his lawyer sued you because the system could be so easily bypassed ? When will the "suing other people for money, disregarding his own responsibility"-frenzy stop ?

 

[signerror]

There are better ways to waste money for public transportations than ensuring drunken people can't throw themselves under trains. Public transportation needs in depth development, especially in the US. I voted nothing.

Next time a person will bypass whatever security system you engineered, because he wanted to commit suicide at that time, how would you feel if his lawyer sued you because the system could be so easily bypassed ? When will the "suing other people for money, disregarding his own responsibility"-frenzy stop ?

I think you're missing the distinction, that this was an unintentional injury. This is a design flaw of the NYC subway. In the double-door people mover in the Malaysian airport I showed (or the one in Tokyo-Narita, or Atlanta-Hartsfield, or others), it is not possible to accidentally fall onto the tracks. Likewise, balconies have railings, and stairways have handbars. Text editors have 'autosave' features. This is part of a soundly designed system: you anticipate what could go wrong, and prevent it.

Frankly, this isn't a major public health hazard, but it's not a particularly expensive one to fix either. And double-doors really bring peace of mind, too. I get vertigo every time I'm near an open rail line. I shouldn't have read that Anna Karenina book.

 

[humanino]

I think you're missing the distinction, that this was an unintentional injury. This is a design flaw of the NYC subway. In the double-door people mover in the Malaysian airport I showed (or the one in Tokyo-Narita, or Atlanta-Hartsfield, or others), it is not possible to accidentally fall onto the tracks. Likewise, balconies have railings, and stairways have handbars. Text editors have 'autosave' features. This is part of a soundly designed system: you anticipate what could go wrong, and prevent it.

No I don't miss it and I am quite familiar with this system. The newest section in Paris has those kind of doors. During some weeks, there was a maniac in Paris pushing people under the trains in older sections. Nobody ever even thought of suing the train company because of the design. I think you are missing my point that people should not permanently be considered even more stupid than normal kids when designing systems. You are also missing the point that there are better ways to spend money for public transportation.

I was conveying that, following the idea that you can sue the train driver or company in general in the case at hand, you can also sue them when a safety system is in place, but you manage to bypass it. Just claim that you were out of your mind at this point, thus irresponsible.

 

[NeoDevin]

I voted for $0, because I am of the mind that people should be responsible for their own incompetence, and this accident was clearly a result of poor choices made by the man involved.

I also, however, agree that there should be additional safety systems in place, to prevent something like this from happening. Would the results of this poll be different if it were someone truly mentally handicapped? It is conceivable to me that a similar accident could occur through no fault of the victim, and, as such, new safety codes should be implemented.

 

[Cyrus]

I vote they amputate his other leg for being a dumbass.

Hmmm, I drank myself stupid and then wandered around on my own and got run over by a train. NOT MY FAULT!

 

[mplayer]

One of my legs can be worth 2.3 million?!

 

[Proton Soup]

While they're at it, NYC might want to take some design tips from the Russians.

maybe after we adopt Uncle Joe's version of the Works Progress Administration, we can.


as for stopping trains in the middle of nowhere by tossing a passed-out bum on the tracks, i don't think that's an idea we want to encourage.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't know the current laws, but at one time in California, if someone was drunk and walking in the middle of the highway, in the middle of the desert, in the middle of the night, and you hit him, you were probably partially liable. It actually happened! The ruling was that the driver was not in the center of the lane - not that he was out of his lane, but he wasn't perfectly centered - so he was assigned some percentage of guilt.

In this case, it appears to me that the subway stations are inherently dangerous in that anyone could easily trip or fall and end up on the tracks, so I can understand the ruling. It sounds like the subway operators are supposed to allow for this sort of thing but this one simply didn't realize what he was seeing on the tracks. It was a case of human error that was avoidable.

Lawsuits like this help to ensure that the metro system maintains rigid safety standards. Was this a case of the driver being too quick to make a false assumption about safety? Sounds that way to me.

 

[cristo]

I also, however, agree that there should be additional safety systems in place, to prevent something like this from happening. Would the results of this poll be different if it were someone truly mentally handicapped? It is conceivable to me that a similar accident could occur through no fault of the victim, and, as such, new safety codes should be implemented.

But you can surely make the same argument about anything. Why not have walls built along roads, with gates at crossings that only open when the traffic has stopped? Why not have such safety systems as normal train stations, as well as underground stations? In fact, at least here in London, the underground stations are safer, since they have so called 'suicide pits' which enable a body to fall under the track (though whether they'd survive the live rails is another issue).

Whilst safety is of course important, you can't go around wrapping everyone in cotton wool, lest the one fool decides to put his life at risk.

 

[neu]

The driver said he thought the guy was an inert object, so he saw him; case closed.

people falling or jumping on the lines is something the drivers should be aware of. Responsibility is on both individual and transport athourity staff. In this case both were responsible, how ever the driver could have easily prevented the accident.

 

[Gokul43201]

I don't know the current laws, but at one time in California, if someone was drunk and walking in the middle of the highway, in the middle of the desert, in the middle of the night, and you hit him, you were probably partially liable. It actually happened! The ruling was that the driver was not in the center of the lane - not that he was out of his lane, but he wasn't perfectly centered - so he was assigned some percentage of guilt.

In the case of the train drive though, I think you will find that he was perfectly centered on his lane!

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I voted (hic) more than $3.6 million.

 

[waht]

But if you are drunk and hurt someone like in a car accident, then they will not be so forgiving.

 

[neu]

But if you are drunk and hurt someone like in a car accident, then they will not be so forgiving.

That might be a good point if it were relevant to the opening post.

 

[BobG]

I vote they amputate his other leg for being a dumbass.

Hmmm, I drank myself stupid and then wandered around on my own and got run over by a train. NOT MY FAULT!

You're talking about a .18 BAC. This guy's problems are his own fault.

Had the subway company sued the drunk and the bartender for the damage to the subway system and the emotional stress placed on the subway driver, I might have considered the bartenders partially responsible. I think there would have been obvious signs the guy had too much to drink way before he reached .18 BAC.

But, I'm not sure about that. It depends on the witnesses in the bar. In fact, what happened to this guy's friends? Did they not notice because they were as trashed as him?

At about 0.14, the person needs medical evaluation and at about 0.20, the person needs medical assistance. (Alcohol and Your Body). The article doesn't mention the person's weight, but a hockey game is probably about 2 hours? A 150 pound male would have to drink about 8 beers during the game to get to 0.18. (BAC Calculator)

 

[BobG]

But you can surely make the same argument about anything. Why not have walls built along roads, with gates at crossings that only open when the traffic has stopped? Why not have such safety systems as normal train stations, as well as underground stations? In fact, at least here in London, the underground stations are safer, since they have so called 'suicide pits' which enable a body to fall under the track (though whether they'd survive the live rails is another issue).

Whilst safety is of course important, you can't go around wrapping everyone in cotton wool, lest the one fool decides to put his life at risk.

This is a good argument.

How many lives would be saved if the interstate had streetlamps for the entire interstate system instead of just high traffic portions? How much money would it cost to save each life? Or, the more difficult, but unavoidable question (the one that gets punitive damages tacked onto a lawsuit verdict), how much is each life worth - is it sometimes better to accept that a "design flaw" is going to cost a certain number of lives?

The Pinto case makes for an interesting ethics subject, but just how much more were car buyers willing to chip to save someone else's life via a higher price? (And the odds would suggest that it would be someone else to die in a car crash, not them).

 

[Gokul43201]

Here's a Drake-equation-like puzzle, for those still pondering this:

If the train driver had slammed the brakes to avoid the drunk on the tracks, how many drunks in the train would have lost balance and broken their noses (or ribs or skulls...)?

 

[neu]

It's not due to a design flaw that the driver didn't stop. It was deemed to be a misjudgement on the driver's part, not because of lack of a saftey barrier.

 

[BobG]

It's not due to a design flaw that the driver didn't stop. It was deemed to be a misjudgement on the driver's part, not because of lack of a saftey barrier.

Shifting responsibility from an entirely automated safety system to human operating procedures is a design "feature". A certain amount of mistaken decisions are inherent in relying upon the driver to make a decision in seconds, at most. The probability of mistaken decisions should be treated the same as the probability of mechanical failure, system malfunction, etc.

As to any injuries sustained by the drunks on the subway if the driver did slam on the brakes, the subway company might have been liable if the drunk really were an inert object. The drunk and the drinking establishment might have been liable in the actual case where the drunk was lying on the tracks (I just can't imagine a jury assigning liability to the subway company if the driver did slam on the brakes to keep from running over someone). Once again, shifting responsibility to human decisions is an imperfect solution. One action, but two completely different results depending upon whether the threat were real or bogus.

Per Dram Shop liability, a drinking establishment can be held for third party deaths or injuries resulting from an overly inebriated customer (drunk driver, etc). The drinking establishment just can't be held liable for death or injuries to the customer, himself.

If I were one of the lawyers for the subway company, I would have trotted this out as a precedent for this case. The company might have some liability if a drunk stumbled and pushed a sober customer under the train, but they surely have no liability for any injuries sustained by the drunk.

Edit: Actually, a few states hold the drinking establishment liable for injuries/death of the customer, himself, so that might not work. (Dram Shop Liability).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If someone trips and falls onto a road, and you hit that person with your car, you would almost certainly be liable; esp if you had time to stop. A person doesn't have to be drunk for this to happen.

The fact that this guy was drunk is probably why the metro system wasn't assigned 90% liability or more. The working assumption with many posts seems to be that it was his fault that he fell. But does that really matter? Isn't it possible for this to happen to anyone whether they're drunk or not?

 

[OAQfirst]

I see stories about every week (since I'm in media coverage at work) about people getting hit by trains. There was a man who was walking down the tracks scratching his lottery tickets. Apparently he was so focused on figuring out the tickets that he ignored/didn't hear the horn blowing as the train hit him.

And then there were those two girls who put their legs over some tracks while sunbathing...

 

[BobG]

If someone trips and falls onto a road, and you hit that person with your car, you would almost certainly be liable; esp if you had time to stop. A person doesn't have to be drunk for this to happen.

The fact that this guy was drunk is probably why the metro system wasn't assigned 90% liability or more. The working assumption with many posts seems to be that it was his fault that he fell. But does that really matter? Isn't it possible for this to happen to anyone whether they're drunk or not?

That's true, but it takes more than a possibility of it happening. I don't know what was presented in court, but it really depends upon whether the system in place to mitigate the risk was acceptable for the probability and severity of the risk. Having a fatality isn't proof that the system in place was unreasonable or else you'd have lawsuits against the government every time a pedestrian was struck by a car on a dark road.

Here's an article (from a very popular newspaper, none the less) that gives a little more detail: Drunk Rides Gravy Train

One thing that might have hurt the subway company was this:

Smiley said Moore {the subway driver} had testified at the deposition that he couldn't "stop every time he sees garbage," because "there's garbage all over the place," but NYC Transit rules call for the motorman to stop the train if there's a mass on the tracks.

(bolded portion added by me, since the entire quote gets italicized).

Having a mitigation measure in place that was so unrealistic that it was never adhered to certainly couldn't have helped them. It's a measure clearly designed to shift responsibility and blame; not a measure designed to improve safety. They would have been better off covering situations like this in training classes while having no absolute rules on how the driver should respond.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That's true, but it takes more than a possibility of it happening. I don't know what was presented in court, but it really depends upon whether the system in place to mitigate the risk was acceptable for the probability and severity of the risk. Having a fatality isn't proof that the system in place was unreasonable or else you'd have lawsuits against the government every time a pedestrian was struck by a car on a dark road.

For the most part, you do have a lawsuit every time a pedestrian is struck by a car; but against the driver not the government.

Also, the driver is almost always at fault by definition - the pedestrian always has the right of way. And even if the driver had no time to stop, he will still likely be assigned some percentage of guilt [at least in States like California].

Even in the case of the "drunk on a desert highway" story, the driver WAS at fault. If he had been watching the road, one would think that he could have swerved and avoided hitting the man in the road. I didn't understand the "center of the lane" bit, but I can see the argument that he wasn't watching the road as he should have been.

 

[BobG]

For the most part, you do have a lawsuit every time a pedestrian is struck by a car; but against the driver not the government.

Also, the driver is almost always at fault by definition - the pedestrian always has the right of way.

Why don't they sue the automaker instead? Better vehicle design would be a lot more effective at reducing deaths/injuries than relying on the decisions and actions of the pedestrians and drivers.

And, actually, in most localities, the pedestrian doesn't have the right of way when they violate traffic signals, jaywalk, walk along limited access roadways (interstates, for example). In some localities, the driver can sue the pedestrian for damage to his car if the pedestrian violated traffic laws.

In fact, it's usually pretty darn hard just to get over the fence so you can cross the interstate. I wound up hanging from one of those fences by the skin between two of my fingers. That really sucked.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If there is so much garbage on the tracks that the drivers can't tell the difference between a body and a bag, then I would say there is a legitimate safety issue given that anyone could fall on the tracks.

 

[rootX]

I voted "Nothing" for Mr. Dibble. But had it be me, my answer would have been different.

It's a really easy way to make money but didn't work for Mr. & Mrs. Boring
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7898407.stm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Why don't they sue the automaker instead? Better vehicle design would be a lot more effective at reducing deaths/injuries than relying on the decisions and actions of the pedestrians and drivers.

The driver is always responsible for the safe operation of his vehicle. You are suggesting that we deflect personal responbility and blame everything on companies and the government. The train operator is lucky that he didn't get sued personally.

And, actually, in most localities, the pedestrian doesn't have the right of way when they violate traffic signals, jaywalk, walk along limited access roadways (interstates, for example). In some localities, the driver can sue the pedestrian for damage to his car if the pedestrian violated traffic laws.

Not where I've lived. In the US, if you hit someone in a crosswalk, red light or not, you will be sued [I don't care where you live]. Some percentage of guilt would probably be assigned to the pedestrian.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I was once towing a very large generator used for the mobile CAT scanners [way back when they first came out]. It was a rental generator that I had just picked up the day before. It had two axles and heavy-truck tires and rims - a real monster. I was bopping along on the 91 FWY, near Long Beach, Ca. when I noticed a bit of fishtailing from the generator. I checked my mirrors and everything looked okay, and after a minute it calmed down, so I assumed that it was hit by a gust of wind. A few minutes laters I noticed some guy who was signalling me to pull over. So I stopped and got out, and he starts yelling "you lost a wheel!". I checked and sure enough, one wheel and tire were gone. I could see that all of the lug bolts had sheered off. I looked at the guy and said something involving several profanities, and then asked where it went. My heart sank into my stomach when he said that it had jumped the center divider and hit a car on the other side of the freeway. This wheel probably weighed at least 100 pounds!

I unhitched and left the generator on the side of the road, and went back to find the accident scene. It was probably the longest ride of my life. A few miles back I found a car pulled over on the side of the road, but everyone was okay. The wheel had hit the car on the crossmember just above the windshield. If it had been six inches lower it probably would have killed at least a couple of people in the car. According to a number accounts, it then bounced about fifty feet into the air and went off along the side of the freeway.

Was I at fault? The bolts had simply sheered off presumably because they had not be tightened properly. Keep in mind that this was a rental generator that I had picked up one day before this happened. And this didn't come from U-Haul; it was all high-dollar stuff.

The answer is yes. I was driving the vehicle so I was responsible.

 

[BobG]

The driver is always responsible for the safe operation of his vehicle. You are suggesting that we deflect personal responbility and blame everything on companies and the government. The train operator is lucky that he didn't get sued personally.

Not that lucky. He died of a stroke.

And, actually, I'm not suggesting we always deflect personal responsibility on companies and the government. I'm just saying that the system that the humans are operating in should be considered, as well.

Human error is unavoidable. Either the risk should be acceptable and a person shouldn't be sued provided their actions were reasonable or else the risk is unacceptable and a better system should be used.

 

[Gokul43201]

Not that lucky. He died of a stroke.

Can the driver's family sue Dibble for exacerbating the driver's heart condition?

 

[BobG]

Not where I've lived. In the US, if you hit someone in a crosswalk, red light or not, you will be sued [I don't care where you live]. Some percentage of guilt would probably be assigned to the pedestrian.

This would be true on a military base, as well, but the speed limits are so slow that you could almost always expect the driver to be able to see a pedestrian ahead of time. A pedestrian in dark clothes on a moonless night on a rural interstate is a completely different story (or at least should be).

Sometimes, the pedestrian is an idiot - and, sometimes, potential subway riders are too drunk to be allowed out on a public street.

 

[BobG]

Can the driver's family sue Dibble for exacerbating the driver's heart condition?

He's certainly got enough cash for it to be worth it. Or, at least he will years down the road if the company's appeal is overturned.

Heck, by time this is over, the economic crisis will have been solved for at least a dozen lawyers.

 

[BobG]

And then there were those two girls who put their legs over some tracks while sunbathing...

What a strange coincidence. NPR had a piece about them on this evening's show.

Destiny and Rachel

Wow! That's about all I can say.

 

[neu]

If I were one of the lawyers for the subway company, I would have trotted this out as a precedent for this case. The company might have some liability if a drunk stumbled and pushed a sober customer under the train, but they surely have no liability for any injuries sustained by the drunk.

What are you on about? You think this is a good point?

Perhaps this explains why your not a lawyer.

You watch too much Ally McBeal

 

[BobG]

What are you on about? You think this is a good point?

Perhaps this explains why your not a lawyer.

You watch too much Ally McBeal

But I spent the night in a Holiday Inn Express.

 

[Moonbear]

I voted less than 1 million. I'm currently in NYC (sorry Astronuc and Doc Al, the dates of the trip kept changing, so I couldn't let you know ahead to meet up) and have seen this on the news, along with the stories about the once again tabled plans to update the subway system with those double-doors mentioned earlier in the thread because once again there isn't enough money to do the updating. These improvements were supposed to be built into a new line that they keep starting to build tunnels for and then shuttering them every time the economy falters and money dries up.

Yes, the conductor is partially at fault for not attempting to stop. However, I think the person who was so inebriated that they fell onto the tracks and couldn't roll out of the way in time (rarely is there only one track at a station that you can't get out of the way of an oncoming train should you land on the tracks...third rails notwithstanding) is mostly to blame for his own actions and bad decisions. Subway platforms are not narrow balance beams, they have plenty of room for one to stagger about without landing on tracks, big yellow lines showing you where it's too close to stand (not that anybody pays attention to those), and late at night, there are no crowds to navigate.

The other issue is how did they arrive at the $3.6 million figure to then cut by 30%? Since the stupidity of the drunken person was, to me, the major contributing factor to the accident (if he wasn't drunk, he wouldn't have been on the tracks in the first place), I think that writes off any argument for things like payment for pain and suffering or lost wages type damages, and should limit the liability of the subway conductor/city to a portion of the cost of medical bills.

Too many people want to make a point by awarding huge sums in lawsuits, but all that does is take money away from actually fixing the problem. If they instead said the city should be required to pay $2 million into a fund to improve safety systems at subway platforms, maybe one platform could introduce such a system and start the ball rolling. Considering how many people travel on the subway every day in the city, and that the vast majority of them manage to not fall onto tracks, it's really hard to be sympathetic to the person who does when it was his own choice to become inebriated to the point of losing control.

 

[Cyrus]

Mooonbearrrr! :!) :!) :!) :!) :!) :!) :!) :!) :!)

 

[NASANerd02]

One might argue about the driver's recklessness about failing to stop when seeing the "object," despite what he thought it might have been... but could he truly be deemed responsible for the recklessness of another?

I agree with Moonbear's statement. So much money is awarded "apologetically" to cases like this, but what about the money needed to fix the problem? If the subway truly needs some form of safeguarding against the tracks, they need some financial boost, somewhere. Instead, people like this get the winnings, along with the chance to say they'd engaged in a huge legal battle with a major public company... because they were drunk??

I also understand that there are regional laws against jaywalking of any sort. Here in Texas, it is majorly frowned upon, and the offender, knowing well that he or she was walking in traffic, would not have any hope of winning a case like that. Much like the lady who sued McDonald's after burning herself with apparently scaldingly hot coffee...

 

[Werg22]

While they're at it, NYC might want to take some design tips from the Russians.

I once read that the subway stations were made so luxurious as a means to spread propaganda about the wealth of the nation to the millions of Russian workers who took the subway every day.

About the question: why does it matter that much that he was drunk? Is it inconceivable that someone trips on the rails without being drunk? In the latter case, would it be the design's or the person's fault? Accidents happen, drunk or not, and the facility with which they can when it comes to subways is ample reason to improve the design and sue whoever is responsible for the lack of action in this regard.

 

[~christina~]

I vote they amputate his other leg for being a dumbass.

Hmmm, I drank myself stupid and then wandered around on my own and got run over by a train. NOT MY FAULT!

Lol, watch him use his other leg to get onto the track again.

Governments should not pay for other people's stupidity.

 

[Werg22]

The government should pay for an obviously useful security measure it does not take.

 

[Gokul43201]

Too many people want to make a point by awarding huge sums in lawsuits, but all that does is take money away from actually fixing the problem. If they instead said the city should be required to pay $2 million into a fund to improve safety systems at subway platforms, maybe one platform could introduce such a system and start the ball rolling.

I like something along these lines too, but there's the issue of a conflict of interests. As a juror, I'd be tempted to ask for a $273 quillion payment if that money will go into making my daily commute safer.