Elastic Collision of a gold nucleus

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around an elastic collision scenario involving a positively charged alpha particle and a positively charged gold nucleus. The problem explores the outcomes of the collision in terms of momentum and kinetic energy, particularly focusing on the relationship between the two particles post-collision.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the implications of momentum and kinetic energy conservation in elastic collisions. The original poster attempts to reconcile logical reasoning with mathematical results, questioning how the calculations align with their intuitive understanding. Others suggest re-evaluating the formulas used and the interpretation of the question.

Discussion Status

The conversation is ongoing, with participants providing insights and corrections to each other's calculations. Some express confusion regarding the relationship between momentum and kinetic energy, while others clarify misunderstandings about the formulas and the nature of the collision.

Contextual Notes

There is mention of a past midterm question and a provided answer key, which has led to some discrepancies in understanding. Participants are also considering the implications of the collision being elastic and how that affects the energy distribution between the two particles.

habibclan
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Homework Statement


A positively charged alpha particle is fired, in a direct line, at a positively charged gold nucleus:

o--> O

o: alpha, O: golden nucleus.

Because of their mutual repulsion, the alpha particle does not actually hit the nuleus: it comes to rest, for a moment, some distance from the nucleus and then recedes. The alpha particle may be considered to have undergone an elastic "collision" with the golden nucleus.The golden nucleus has a mass of about 50 times the alpha particle. Compared to the gold nucleus, after the collision, the alpha particle has

A. more momentum but less kinetic energy
B. more momentum and more kinetic energy.
C. less momentum and less kinetic energy
D. less momentum but more kinetic energy
E. the same momentum but more kinetic energy.


Homework Equations



Elastic collision: object 2 initially at rest. vi is the initial velocity of the alpha particle. The post-collision velocities are:
v1= (m1 - m2)vi / (m1+ m2)
v2= (2*m2)vi / (m1+ m2)

The Attempt at a Solution



This problem can be solved in two ways: either by using logic and doing no calculations or doing the calculations based on the elastic collision formulas. Logically, I know that the initial momentum is to the right, therefore post collision the overall momentum will be to the right. So the gold nucleus will definitely have more momentum. The question now remains about the kinetic energy. Logically, one would think that even though the net momentum is to the right, the velocity of the gold nucleus < velocity of alpha, due to the huge mass difference, therefore the KE of the alpha particle would be greater. However, to back this up, I wanted to prove it mathematically but it doesn't work out that way.

Let the initial velocity of the alpha particle be vi.

Velocity of gold nucleus post-elastic-collision:
v2= (2*m2)vi / (m1+ m2)
v2= (2*50m)vi / (m+ 50m)
v2= (100m) vi/ (51m) = 100v/51

Velocity of alpha nucleus post-elastic-collision:
v1= (m1 - m2)vi / (m1+ m2)
v1= (m - 50m)vi / (m+ 50m)
v1= (-49m)vi / (51m)= -49/51 v


From this I can see that the velocity of the alpha particle is much less than the velocity of the gold nucleus, which having the greater mass as well, will have the greater momentum. How is it that the math doesn't work out but logically answer D makes sense? Thanks in advance!
 
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D doesn't make sense. Total kinetic energy is conserved since the collision is elastic. The alpha comes in with all of the kinetic energy and the gold nucleus with none. The gold nucleus leaves with some kinetic energy so that of the alpha MUST decrease. Momentum is a little trickier since it has a sign. But still, can you rethink this?
 
Last edited:
This question is from a past midterm and the answer given in the answer key is D. I've thought of it in terms of momentum and since velocity is squared in the KE expression, larger velocity of the alpha particle gives it a greater KE. Besides this, I don't know what to conclude from this problem. Logic makes sense to me, but the math isn't working out, when technically it should be. :S I'm confused!
 
habibclan said:
Compared to the gold nucleus, after the collision, the alpha particle has

D. less momentum but more kinetic energy

I think you're misreading the question.

D says that momentum(alpha) < momentum(gold) and KE(alpha) > KE(gold). :wink:
 
hehe. i do get that. the only discrepency is that the formulas give a greater velocity for the gold nucleus. Therefore, making it have a higher KE. Or should I not use the formula over here and it's not a REAL elastic collision.
 
Hi habibclan,

The equation you have for v2 in your relevant equations section is not correct. Do you see what it needs to be?
 
tiny-tim said:
I think you're misreading the question.

D says that momentum(alpha) < momentum(gold) and KE(alpha) > KE(gold). :wink:

I was definitely reading it wrong. And that's with absolute values on the momentum. habibclan, check your math. I'm getting v alpha=(-49/51)vi (just as you did) but for v gold I get (2/51)vi. Not (100/51)vi.
 
Dick said:
I was definitely reading it wrong. And that's with absolute values on the momentum. habibclan, check your math. I'm getting v alpha=(-49/51)vi (just as you did) but for v gold I get (2/51)vi. Not (100/51)vi.

My formula sheet has a weird way of writing the formula and they had m2 on there, that's why instead of having 2 in my numerator, i have 100. You guys saved me from using that formula on the exam! Thanks a lot!

[Now my logical answer matches the math too! Yay!]
 

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