Electric / magnetic field transformations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the transformations of electric and magnetic fields under Lorentz transformations, specifically focusing on rotations and the properties of the electromagnetic field tensor. Participants explore the implications of these transformations in the context of tensor indices and the distinction between vectors and pseudo-vectors.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the electromagnetic field tensor and applies a rotation transformation, questioning the correctness of their index placements and the resulting transformations of electric and magnetic fields.
  • Another participant notes that while the magnetic field is a pseudo-vector, it should transform like a vector under rotations, suggesting that the participant check space reflections for differences in transformations of E and B fields.
  • A third participant shares their own calculations using GRtensor, which yield different results for the transformed field tensor, indicating potential discrepancies in sign or index placement compared to the first participant's results.
  • A later reply acknowledges the pseudo-vector nature of the magnetic field and suggests that there may have been an error in the calculations, prompting a review of the index placements in the transformation equations.
  • One participant identifies an error in their Mathematica code related to the index placements of the rotation matrix, leading to a resolution of their earlier doubts about the calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the correctness of their transformations and calculations, with some discrepancies noted in the results. There is no clear consensus on the correct transformation process, and multiple viewpoints remain regarding the handling of indices and the nature of the fields.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential errors in index placements and calculations, indicating that the transformations may depend on careful handling of tensor indices. There are unresolved differences in the results obtained by different participants.

CompuChip
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Hi. I thought I had tensors and Lorentz transformations under control, but now I'm in doubt again.

For example, consider the electromagnetic field tensor
[tex]F_{\mu\nu} = \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 & -E_1 & -E_2 & -E_3 \\<br /> E_1 & 0 & B_3 & -B_2 \\<br /> E_2 & -B_3 & 0 & B_1 \\<br /> E_3 & B_2 & -B_1 & 0 \\<br /> \end{pmatrix} <br /> \qquad\text{ so } <br /> F^{\mu\nu} = \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 & E_1 & E_2 & E_3 \\<br /> -E_1 & 0 & B_3 & -B_2 \\<br /> -E_2 & -B_3 & 0 & B_1 \\<br /> -E_3 & B_2 & -B_1 & 0 \\<br /> \end{pmatrix}[/tex]
in the (-1, 1, 1, 1) metric.

Now we apply a Lorentz transformation, and to keep it simple we take a (counter clockwise) rotation around an angle [itex]\theta[/itex] about the [itex]z[/itex]-axis. Now I thought I'd write this as
[tex]R^\mu_\nu = \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\<br /> 0 & \cos\theta & -\sin\theta & 0 \\<br /> 0 & \sin\theta & \cos\theta & 0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\<br /> \end{pmatrix}[/tex]
as it works on a vector and produces a vector ([tex](v')^\mu = R^\mu_\nu v^\nu[/tex]).
Did I get this right? In this case wrong placement of the indices doesn't introduce errors yet, as far as I can see, but this will generally not be the case for boosts (which do not have just zeros in the first column and row).

Now the components of the electric field [itex]E_i = F_{i0}[/itex] transform as
[tex]E_i' = F'_{i0} = R_i^\mu R_0^\nu F_{\mu\nu}.[/tex]
Working out the transformation yields
[tex]E_1' = E_1 \cos\theta - E_2 \sin \theta; \quad<br /> E_2' = E_1 \sin\theta + E_2 \cos \theta; \quad<br /> E_3' = E_3,[/tex]
which can be written in vector notation as
[tex]\vec E' = \mat R \vec E<br /> \qquad\text{ where }<br /> \mat R = \begin{pmatrix}<br /> \cos\theta & -\sin\theta & 0 \\<br /> \sin\theta & \cos\theta & 0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 1 \\<br /> \end{pmatrix},[/tex]
which is, I think, the transformation rule for a vector hence what one would expect.

Similarly, the components of the magnetic field are [itex]B_i = \frac12 \epsilon_{ijk} F^{jk}[/itex].
As raising both the indices on [itex]F_{\mu\nu}[/itex] does not affect the components in the
lower right [itex]3 \times 3[/itex] block -- that is, [itex]F_{ij} = F^{ij}[/itex] for [itex]i, j = 1, 2, 3[/itex] --
we can calculate
[tex]B_i' = \frac12 \epsilon_{ijk} F'^{jk} = \frac12 \epsilon_{ijk} R^j_\mu R^k_\nu F^{\mu\nu}.[/tex]
Explicit calculation yields
[tex]B_1' = B_1 \cos\theta - B_2 \sin\theta; \quad<br /> B_2' = B_1 \sin\theta + B_2 \cos\theta; \quad<br /> B_3' = B_3,[/tex]
which is exactly the same as the electric field. Yet the magnetic field is not a vector, but a pseudo-vector; therefore I doubt my answer.

I'd like to get this right, especially with the indices etc., before I proceed to boosts, e.g.
[tex]R^\mu_\nu \to \Lambda^\mu_\nu = \begin{pmatrix}<br /> \cosh\theta & \sinh\theta & 0 & 0 \\<br /> \sinh\theta & \cosh\theta & 0 & 0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\<br /> \end{pmatrix}[/tex]

Thanks a lot.
 
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CompuChip said:
which is exactly the same as the electric field. Yet the magnetic field is not a vector, but a pseudo-vector; therefore I doubt my answer.

Even though it is a pseudo-vector, it is supposed to transform like a vector in rotations. You should check space reflections to see if you get the desired difference in the transformation of E and B.
 
Using GRtensor, I take

[tex] F_{ab} =\left[ \begin {array}{cccc} 0&-{\it Ex}&-{\it Ey}&-{\it Ez}\\\noalign{\medskip}{\it Ex}&0&{\it Bz}&-{\it By}\\\noalign{\medskip}{<br /> \it Ey}&-{\it Bz}&0&{\it Bx}\\\noalign{\medskip}{\it Ez}&{\it By}&-{<br /> \it Bx}&0\end {array} \right] [/tex]

and
[tex] L^a{}_b = \left[ \begin {array}{cccc} 1&0&0&0\\\noalign{\medskip}0&\cos \left( \theta \right) &-\sin \left( \theta \right) &0\\\noalign{\medskip}0&<br /> \sin \left( \theta \right) &\cos \left( \theta \right) &0<br /> \\\noalign{\medskip}0&0&0&1\end {array} \right] [/tex]

to compute

[tex] F^{\prime}_{ab} = F_{cd} L^c{}_a L^d{}_b[/tex]

which is

[tex] \left[ \begin {array}{cccc} 0&-{\it Ex}\,\cos \left( \theta \right) -{\it Ey}\,\sin \left( \theta \right) &{\it Ex}\,\sin \left( \theta<br /> \right) -{\it Ey}\,\cos \left( \theta \right) &-{\it Ez}<br /> \\\noalign{\medskip}{\it Ex}\,\cos \left( \theta \right) +{\it Ey}\,<br /> \sin \left( \theta \right) &0&{\it Bz}\, \left( \cos \left( \theta<br /> \right) \right) ^{2}+{\it Bz}\, \left( \sin \left( \theta \right) <br /> \right) ^{2}&-{\it By}\,\cos \left( \theta \right) +{\it Bx}\,\sin<br /> \left( \theta \right) \\\noalign{\medskip}-{\it Ex}\,\sin \left( <br /> \theta \right) +{\it Ey}\,\cos \left( \theta \right) &-{\it Bz}\,<br /> \left( \sin \left( \theta \right) \right) ^{2}-{\it Bz}\, \left( <br /> \cos \left( \theta \right) \right) ^{2}&0&{\it By}\,\sin \left( <br /> \theta \right) +{\it Bx}\,\cos \left( \theta \right) <br /> \\\noalign{\medskip}{\it Ez}&{\it By}\,\cos \left( \theta \right) -{<br /> \it Bx}\,\sin \left( \theta \right) &-{\it By}\,\sin \left( \theta<br /> \right) -{\it Bx}\,\cos \left( \theta \right) &0\end {array} \right] [/tex]

I didn't think this quite matched some of the signs in your result, but I thought it might be helpful.
 
Last edited:
jostpuur, of course you are right about the (pseudo)-vector remark. Thanks.

pervect: I think you calculated [itex]L^T F L[/itex] whereas I did [itex]L F L^T[/itex]. One of us should be wrong then (and it's probably me), which would mean I messed up the indices... just what I was afraid of.

[edit]I found it, there was an error in my Mathematica code (it read
Code:
e[i_] := Sum[R[[i, \[Mu]]] R[[1, \[Nu]]] F[[\[Mu], \[Nu]]], {\[Mu], 1, 4}, {\[Nu], 1, 4}]
instead of
Code:
e[i_] := Sum[R[[\[Mu], i]] R[[\[Nu], 1]] F[[\[Mu], \[Nu]]], {\[Mu], 1, 4}, {\[Nu], 1, 4}]
-- note the indices of the rotation matrix.
So apparently we agree now.[/edit].
 
Last edited:

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