Electronics vs Telecom for Physics?

[Avaro667]

Hello everyone,i would be greatful if someone could take the time to answer the following questions for me :

-First is,does it worth getting a physics degree after completing an EE degree ? Or would be better to just do a masters/PhD in physics?

-Could you suggest courses an EE could take that would be really useful to work on particle accelerators technology and generally in physics experiments ?

I soon must choose between speciliazing in telecommunications engineering or Electronics engineering,and i feel very confused. After 3 years of studying i think none of the above is exactly what I'm interested in(although i find each one interesting for different reasons).Throughout the years the only thing that didn't change the slightest is my love,curiosity and eagerness to learn more for matters of pure physics(especially theoritical as i enjoy and do great in maths as well).So I'm trying to figure out how i could combine different courses from each specialty,to prepare myself for further physics education(maybe getting a BSc in Physics or a masters),or potentially work on physics experiments as an engineer. Please try be kind and provide useful advices. I know it's quite strange for an engineer to prefer theoritical work,but we're are what we are.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to discuss this with me.I would love hearing your opinions and advices very much.

 

[dRic2]

I think it depends a lot on where you are studying. In US I think there is an extraordinary high competition in the academic world and going for a phD in physics without a BS seems to be harder than in Europe (where I live). In the last two years I encountered a decent amount of physicists holding even an MS in some kind of engineering; so if you are in Europe I would suggest not to waste too much time and go directly for a MS in physics (here you generally do 2 years of MS degree + (optional) 2/3 of phd instead of 6 years phd like in the US).

For what concerns your preparation, I have a BS in chemE and, looking around here on PF, I noticed that my main disadvantage wrt to a physics undergrad was my lack of understanding of EM, but you should be covered since you're studying EE. On the other hand if I were you I would revise some thermodynamics and maybe give a look at some simple stat mech which I think you may have overlooked in your studies. The other two things that engineering undergrads lack wrt to physics undergrad are special relativity and and introduction to quantum mechanics. I haven't studied relativity so I cannot help you on that but it sure will be important if you want to end up in particle accelerators. If you are willing to self study a bit I don't think it would be too challenging to overcome this obstacle with help of the community here on PF. For what regards QM I took an introduction course (based on Griffiths) when I was in my last year of undergrad. I didn't like it very much and the very few things I learned about QM are not thanks to that course but to the people here on PF, but if you have a math background similar to mine (linear algebra, real analysis, ODE, PDE) it won't be too difficult to follow if you have a good professor (I didn't have high grades in math, but I could work myself through the exercises knowing the basics and asking here).

Good luck.

 

[Avaro667]

I think it depends a lot on where you are studying. In US I think there is an extraordinary high competition in the academic world and going for a phD in physics without a BS seems to be harder than in Europe (where I live). In the last two years I encountered a decent amount of physicists holding even an MS in some kind of engineering; so if you are in Europe I would suggest not to waste too much time and go directly for a MS in physics (here you generally do 2 years of MS degree + (optional) 2/3 of phd instead of 6 years phd like in the US).

For what concerns your preparation, I have a BS in chemE and, looking around here on PF, I noticed that my main disadvantage wrt to a physics undergrad was my lack of understanding of EM, but you should be covered since you're studying EE. On the other hand if I were you I would revise some thermodynamics and maybe give a look at some simple stat mech which I think you may have overlooked in your studies. The other two things that engineering undergrads lack wrt to physics undergrad are special relativity and and introduction to quantum mechanics. I haven't studied relativity so I cannot help you on that but it sure will be important if you want to end up in particle accelerators. If you are willing to self study a bit I don't think it would be too challenging to overcome this obstacle with help of the community here on PF. For what regards QM I took an introduction course (based on Griffiths) when I was in my last year of undergrad. I didn't like it very much and the very few things I learned about QM are not thanks to that course but to the people here on PF, but if you have a math background similar to mine (linear algebra, real analysis, ODE, PDE) it won't be too difficult to follow if you have a good professor (I didn't have high grades in math, but I could work myself through the exercises knowing the basics and asking here).

Good luck.

I'm living in Europe too! I know things are different at US,but i guess engineering undergrads who want to get into physics face similar dilemmas. Maybe they have the advantage that their university let them change major if they haven't gone too far in their studies,since first years have similarities.

About my background,yes,i have taken so far :
Calculus,vector calculus,linear algebra,ODEs,PDEs,Propability & Statistics,Stochastic Processes and signals,some complex analysis, and discrete math course.

Pure Physics courses :
Mechanics,Electromagnetism I, Electromagnetism II, Introduction to QM(some special relativity facts were used in some lectures,but not in detail).
Next semester I'm planning taking : Thermodynamics & heat transfer(this is tought from engineering standpoint though) and Optoelectronics.

Later on I'm planning on taking courses in :
semiconductor physics,nanoelectronics,quantum electronics and photonics.

I could also drop an elective course like sensors,so i can also take a microwaves course and later on RF ,and microwave devices courses(which could be useful for particle accelerators,right?).But would it worth it? The content of these courses might focus on telecom applications and i wouldn't enjoy them that much. But i guess i will have to ask the professors teaching these courses to clarify this. I'm bothering you with details right now,but they have been in my mind so long,that i just need to ask someone for a second opinion :P .

Anyways,so you're suggesting i should self-study as much as i can and if i make it,go straight for a masters or even a PhD rather than getting a BSc in Physics? I love self-studying btw so this is not an issue.

 

[dRic2]

,so you're suggesting i should self-study as much as i can

Yes, but given your current preparation I don't think you will have to study like crazy. I think a lot of engineering courses teach a great deal of physics if done right and so you might just want to be "a little more curious" and speculate a little bit about first principles instead of just going through the engineering applications that are presented in the courses. An other thing I would do is to go through some famous undergrad books like the Feynman lectures of physics and see if you find topics you don't understand or you've never heard of. If you do, pick a book about the topic and study it a little bit. Be careful not to overdo and get too stressed out (because there will be lots of things you don't know), but try to push yourself to a fair point.

Later on I'm planning on taking courses in :
semiconductor physics,nanoelectronics,quantum electronics and photonics.

I could also drop an elective course like sensors,so i can also take a microwaves course and later on RF ,and microwave devices courses(which could be useful for particle accelerators,right?).But would it worth it?

I cannot help you on this (hope some other member will join the discussion). Anyway you could try (if you university offers them) more general courses like "physics of matter" or an introduction to solid state physics.
It also really depends on what you want to end up doing after your MS degree.

This is my opinion, don't take this like the holy grail :D

(I think you should go for an MS and then for a PhD... here in Europe I've never met a guy with a PhD without a master...)

 

[Avaro667]

Yes, but given your current preparation I don't think you will have to study like crazy. I think a lot of engineering courses teach a great deal of physics if done right and so you might just want to be "a little more curious" and speculate a little bit about first principles instead of just going through the engineering applications that are presented in the courses. An other thing I would do is to go through some famous undergrad books like the Feynman lectures of physics and see if you find topics you don't understand or you've never heard of. If you do, pick a book about the topic and study it a little bit. Be careful not to overdo and get too stressed out (because there will be lots of things you don't know), but try to push yourself to a fair point.I cannot help you on this (hope some other member will join the discussion). Anyway you could try (if you university offers them) more general courses like "physics of matter" or an introduction to solid state physics.
It also really depends on what you want to end up doing after your MS degree.

This is my opinion, don't take this like the holy grail :D

(I think you should go for an MS and then for a PhD... here in Europe I've never met a guy with a PhD without a master...)

I think i should be able to follow the basic courses with no big trouble as you say. At least for the undergraduate stuff. I'm sure math can get pretty crazy in grad school with things like tensors but we are not there yet obviously.So yes,like you said i could study Feynman lectures,it sounds like a good advice. I'm sure there are plenty of things i am not aware of and i would happily invest the time to learn ,with my own pace.

I understand,your input was really helpful,thank you for answering :) .
In general i wouldn't like end up doing programming. I am good at it,if it's needed i can do it,but i just wouldn't like to do it. I would like to focus on something that would require solid physics knowledge. Maybe it's research,i don't know. But working as an engineer on physics projects would also be interesting . I'm looking forward hearing from other people as well :D .

 

[CrysPhys]

I soon must choose between speciliazing in telecommunications engineering or Electronics engineering,and i feel very confused. After 3 years of studying i think none of the above is exactly what I'm interested in(although i find each one interesting for different reasons).

* You said you've finished 3 yrs. How many more years to complete your current program?
* A listing of the remaining courses for the telecommunications engineering vs. electronics engineering specialties specific to your program would be helpful.

 

[Avaro667]

* You said you've finished 3 yrs. How many more years to complete your current program?
* A listing of the remaining courses for the telecommunications engineering vs. electronics engineering specialties specific to your program would be helpful.

Hey,thanks for answering.
My program is 5 years and once finished,i am awarded with a masters degree. It's an integrated master program.I'm not sure if you have heard it before.

And about the remaining courses,this should help :

 

[CrysPhys]

Hey,thanks for answering.
My program is 5 years and once finished,i am awarded with a masters degree. It's an integrated master program.I'm not sure if you have heard it before.

And about the remaining courses,this should help :

If you must choose between one of those programs, but are planning to switch to experimental physics afterwards, I would recommend that you choose the Electronics and Computer Systems specialization.

 

[Avaro667]

If you must choose between one of those programs, but are planning to switch to experimental physics afterwards, I would recommend that you choose the Electronics and Computer Systems specialization.

Thank you very much for taking the time to chech this out! Would you recommend any particular elective courses for each semester(besides the ones related to physics of course) ?

 

[CrysPhys]

Thank you very much for taking the time to chech this out! Would you recommend any particular elective courses for each semester(besides the ones related to physics of course) ?

Rather than recommending particular electives, I'll provide you with some guidelines and examples: Ultimately the choices are yours to make (and more information, such as detailed course syllabus is needed for a proper decision; I've only course titles to go by).

* Remember, electives give you the opportunity to explore subjects beyond the required core. Since you seem to be uncertain about your future pursuits, perhaps you should take advantage of a couple of electives for simple exploration. Keep that in mind.

* That said, if your future plans lie in experimental physics, focus on electives that are fundamental and applicable to a wide range of experimental physics activities, such as "Semiconductor Devices" and "Measurement Systems and Sensors".

* Also, for university course work, focus on the tough subjects rather than easier subjects that you might pick up on your own. E.g., "Image Processing and Pattern Recognition" vs. "Internet of Things"; or "Quantum Electronic Devices" vs. "Industrial Engineering".

 

[Avaro667]

Rather than recommending particular electives, I'll provide you with some guidelines and examples: Ultimately the choices are yours to make (and more information, such as detailed course syllabus is needed for a proper decision; I've only course titles to go by).

* Remember, electives give you the opportunity to explore subjects beyond the required core. Since you seem to be uncertain about your future pursuits, perhaps you should take advantage of a couple of electives for simple exploration. Keep that in mind.

* That said, if your future plans lie in experimental physics, focus on electives that are fundamental and applicable to a wide range of experimental physics activities, such as "Semiconductor Devices" and "Measurement Systems and Sensors".

* Also, for university course work, focus on the tough subjects rather than easier subjects that you might pick up on your own. E.g., "Image Processing and Pattern Recognition" vs. "Internet of Things"; or "Quantum Electronic Devices" vs. "Industrial Engineering".

You're right on that,i believe taking the elective courses related to physics would be a wise choice since I'm sure i will enjoy them,which is the primary objective of all. And for the remaining ones i could just explore different subjects and be open-minded as you suggest.

I never take the easy electives btw. Someone would expect i would do better(because they are easier),but on the contrary i get really low marks in courses like "Business administration" and i also hate them very much :P .On the other hand i do great in courses,like quantum physics.

I wish i could provide you further info about the content of the courses but they're in Greek :/ .I could translate most of them but it will take some time...

The main reason i am not sure sure which one to choose is telecommunications specialty seems a very deep subject,and i like that very much. That's one of the main reasons i like so much physics too,it's deep. Also it delves into things like optical communications,propagation and antennas which all have to do with electromagnetism. On the other hand i needed a second opinion because i also believe electronics seem to have broader applications and could be more useful for the majority of physics experiments.

I guess in the end it doesn't matter that much whether you took 2 instead of 4 electives in a particular area if you plan focusing on it after graduation,isn't it ? I could always just learn these stuff later on.

I want to thank you again for taking the time to disscus this with me.It's something that i think a lot as i get closer and closer to the point that i will have to choose, and it's quite exhausting.Especially when you don't have an academic advisor to talk about even the basic stuff.

 

[CrysPhys]

The main reason i am not sure sure which one to choose is telecommunications specialty seems a very deep subject,and i like that very much. That's one of the main reasons i like so much physics too,it's deep. Also it delves into things like optical communications,propagation and antennas which all have to do with electromagnetism. On the other hand i needed a second opinion because i also believe electronics seem to have broader applications and could be more useful for the majority of physics experiments.

I'll give you my perspective. I got my PhD in physics, with a concentration in solid-state physics. After working for ~10 yrs in industry as a solid-state physicist (R&D on optoelectronic devices), I switched careers to telcom systems engineering.

It is much easier for a physicist well-grounded in fundamentals to learn higher-level engineering later on, than the other way around. E.g., if you know E&M, optics, and quantum devices (e.g., how a laser works), you can reasonably learn data processing, signal processing, and optical transport on your own (if you choose to). But if you start with a background in optical communications on a systems level, it is much harder to learn how a laser works on your own (if you choose to).

 

[Avaro667]

I'll give you my perspective. I got my PhD in physics, with a concentration in solid-state physics. After working for ~10 yrs in industry as a solid-state physicist (R&D on optoelectronic devices), I switched careers to telcom systems engineering.

It is much easier for a physicist well-grounded in fundamentals to learn higher-level engineering later on, than the other way around. E.g., if you know E&M, optics, and quantum devices (e.g., how a laser works), you can reasonably learn data processing, signal processing, and optical transport on your own (if you choose to). But if you start with a background in optical communications on a systems level, it is much harder to learn how a laser works on your own (if you choose to).

I'm pretty sure many things are easy given a physics background. Engineering is great but it doesn't care to derive things from first principles.Now this is quite practical in real world situations i give it that .Obviously if someone had to derive everything from first principles everytime he or she wanted to build anything,then almost nothing would work today. But it's also true that one can learn engineering stuff much easier than physics.

Now many people and most if not all engineers don't usually care about first principles but for me it's important. First of all it's exciting and interesting. Second of all ,things are much easier to understand if you know the basic laws. I'm really not the kind of person who gets a formula and throws numbers in it without having a clue on what's going on(a fair amount of courses are like that.Not all thankfully). I want to understand why things work the way they do or at least help and try to appreciate such efforts. I find very appealing the fact that physics is not only trying to understand nature but also reduce it into a small set of very basic and fundamental laws.

Maybe i go after a physics degree at some point later,i don't know.It won't be easy because obviously i can't just study forever but I'm willing to try it.I'm not a fool,i know no matter how close EE and physics are,these two are different. EE is a nice field honestly and i am greatful for anything i have learned so far. So if anything,i would like to apply my knoweledge to help with experiments.It's a nice way of having and incone and work on something i like.Now i know many other people might want the same thing and it won't be easy,but i think I'm passionate about to try it really hard. If Electronics specialty bring me closer to it then i will pick that of course :).