Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church shooting victims

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  • #1
Astronuc
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RIP

Clementa Pinckney, 41, father of two, pastor, state senator
Sharonda Coleman-Singleton, 45, mother of three, coach, speech-language therapist
Cynthia Hurd, 54, librarian, . . .
DePayne Middleton-Doctor, 49, mother of four, former county employee
Tywanza Sanders, 26, graduate of business school
Myra Thompson, 59, mother, wife of Rev. Anthony Thompson, a vicar for Holy Trinity REC
Ethel Lee Lance, 70, worked at the church for more than 30 years
Daniel L. Simmons, 74, retired pastor from another church in Charleston
Susie Jackson, 87, active in the church, serving on the usher board and singing in the choir

http://news.yahoo.com/victims-of-charleston-church-shooting-184054049.html

Peace be upon their families, friends, colleagues and acquaintances.
 
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  • #2
lisab
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This is so sad. Hard to believe it's happening yet again.
 
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  • #3
Evo
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Give a drug addict racist kid a gun as a present...
 
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  • #4
StevieTNZ
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I was shocked to hear this on the 6pm news last night, in New Zealand. I am glad they have caught the suspect -- may he feel the full force of the law.
 
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  • #5
nsaspook
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Just zap him and be done with it. I don't want to know his name or even see his face.
 
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  • #6
dlgoff
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I don't want to know his name or even see his face.
Unfortunately there's no chance of that. At least two weeks of full time TV news coverage is my estimate.
 
  • #7
lisab
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Just zap him and be done with it. I don't want to know his name or even see his face.

Totally agree - makes me sick to read or even know anything about this guy. We've got to stop making these perpetrators look like celebrities.
 
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  • #8
Silicon Waffle
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He is mentally unhealthy. It's horrible news. :nb)
 
  • #9
Tobias Funke
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He is mentally unhealthy. It's horrible news. :nb)

Not everyone who does something like this is mentally ill, unless you define mental illness as "anyone who does something like this," which renders it completely meaningless.
He knew exactly what he was doing.
 
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  • #10
Silicon Waffle
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Even though it can be proven he is suffering from any sort of minor psychiatric disorders, criminals like him should definitely be severely punished.
 
  • #11
Not everyone who does something like this is mentally ill, unless you define mental illness as "anyone who does something like this," which renders it completely meaningless.
He knew exactly what he was doing.
I read somewhere that he even stated that he almost didn't go through with it because everyone there at the church was being so nice to him. This to me shows that he truly did know what he was doing, that he has some sort of conscious or rational decision making, he just decided to suppress it.
 
  • #12
Astronuc
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I'd prefer to reflect on the victims and their families, and what they lost and what the community lost, rather than reflect on the perpetrator.

Nine families are grieving the loss of three fathers and six mothers. Spouses are mourning the loss of their life partners. Friends mourn the losses of dear friends. My thoughts are with them.


Faithful flood Emanuel AME Church for Sunday service
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/faithful-flood-emanuel-a-m-e-church-for-sunday-122096056671.html
 
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  • #13
rootone
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Somebody who kills others with whom he has no prior dealings, on the basis that he doesn't like something about their appearance, is most definitely not mentally well.
 
  • #14
Tobias Funke
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I didn't think that's how it works but I'll respect your diagnosis, doctor. He's also a violent white supremacist, which I think is the more relevant personality trait than the catch-all "bat**** insane."
 
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  • #15
Ryan_m_b
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Somebody who kills others with whom he has no prior dealings, on the basis that he doesn't like something about their appearance, is most definitely not mentally well.

That is a huge simplification, there's no reason at this time to suspect he was mentally ill (and I understand the frustration of my minority friends when they complain that white killers are speculated to be mentally Ill but minority killers are speculated to be terrorists). He wrote a manifesto that is available online. I won't link to it (it's easy to find anyway) but what's written there does not look like the ramblings of a mentally ill person. A hate filled racist yes, but not much more.

The cliff notes is that he claims not to be raised racist but reminisces about school peer opinions on black people. He states he started down this path after reading about Treyvon Martin and feeling that Zimmerman was completely in the right. At that point he began googling black on white crime and got involved in websites on that topic (I'm sure you can imagine what they are like). He then goes on and on about how terrible black people are, how they are violent, racist and they're taking over his country. It goes on for a while.

Point is jumping on the mental illness theory is extremely problematic. It assumes sane people can't do evil things (thus dengrading people with mental issues), ignores the complexity of the topic and tends to be unequally applied depending on the race of the perpetrator. Until a qualified psychiatrist comes out with a professional diagnosis no one should be claiming he's mentally ill.
 
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  • #16
Silicon Waffle
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That is very well-said!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/...s-what-we-knew-Dylann-Roof-a-racist-terrorist
It turns out that that a healthy person with personality traits differing from those of normal person had been learning bad things on social media now becomes a bad guy.
If you apply this to a child or teen then I agree he is perfectly healthy, mentally as society, parents or anyone in charge may redirect him to the right path of life. His thoughts are not fully malfunctioning i.e take a wrong choice as being a hater, a racist and his cognitive behaviors after all didn't show him to be normal or do you think brutally kicking, hitting or shooting a lot of people dead because of anger or hate is perfectly mentally normal ?
You may post your definition of psychiatric disorder.
For me I think he may be fallen into this category: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

We're just speculating about things, if you aren't afraid of your incorrect speculation or may not be thinking too high of your scientific correctness, please share your thoughts, we aren't juries or cops anyway...and my heart-felt sympathy is all out to the relatives of the victims. I really don't support any ideas to set free any of such criminals.
 
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  • #17
gleem
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Make no mistake, racism is alive and well in the South. They still carry a chip on their shoulder about the "War of Northern Aggression". The fact that a 21 year old today ( and not a 61 year old) has harbored thoughts exemplified by this action demonstrates to me that these feeling have been nurtured. I do not think his feelings where the result of any personal unpleasant interactions with the Black community that he needed to seek some form of retribution.

I believe that Governor Nikki Haley's calling for the elimination of the flying of the Confederate flag, as commendable and necessary as it is, will further inflame the quiet racism in that state.
 
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  • #18
rootone
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@ryan
I take your point, though personally I think that 'terrorists' who kill people based on that the victims don't believe in a particular fairy are equally 'mad'.
 
  • #19
Tobias Funke
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The fact that a 21 year old today ( and not a 61 year old) has harbored thoughts exemplified by this action demonstrates to me that these feeling have been nurtured. I do not think his feelings where the result of any personal unpleasant interactions with the Black community that he needed to seek some form of retribution.

Apparently his only real interaction with the Black community involved said community being pleasant and welcoming, so I think you're right. I haven't read his manifesto because I know the exact essence of what it says, but it's not surprising that his feelings were nurtured in some online echo chamber where logic goes out the window. He began to think black people are violent after a black teenager was racially profiled and gunned down! He thought black people are violent and so he goes and violently kills some. He thought black people are violent when his state capitol still flies the flag of slavery. There are any number of sites and even mainstream news organizations that helped form his views and supported his backwards logic.

We can avoid talking about what caused it all we like but there's a clear pattern of angry men who are fed lies about "their" culture being overrun by blacks, gays, women, Muslims, Jews, liberals, you name it, and this is the inevitable result. It's not going to just magically go away if we just wait for the Earth to travel around the sun n more times. Maybe racism---at least this type of it---has declined since 1960 (maybe), but are we better off now than in 2000? Or maybe the important year is 2008...? Doesn't seem like it. Or am I just noticing it more? Neither option is very comforting.

*Yes, it's almost always a man when mass shootings are concerned. Women have no problem adding fuel to the fire, though, like the white woman who through facebook just faked being assaulted by three black men, awful black eye makeup and fake blood and all.
 
  • #20
Czcibor
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He began to think black people are violent after a black teenager was racially profiled and gunned down!
I think he unfortunately may have read an uncensored version, in which somewhere in between this Black guy have nicely beaten that White (Latino, whatever...) member of neighbouring watch group.
(yes, it looked as trigger happy white met a fledging gangsta - with limited tribalism and effort one can fully blame here the side of his choice, pending on starting bias)

He thought black people are violent when his state capitol still flies the flag of slavery.
How is it related? I mean really that how US South still haven't developed a more mature approach to its past is silly, but I don't see how it's related to considering blacks as violent or not. In the same way you can say that if Obama was elected it means that it proves that all racism is magically gone.

There are any number of sites and even mainstream news organizations that helped form his views and supported his backwards logic.
I think that he did not need any special bias to find quite high crime rate among blacks. Thanks to simple cherry picking, such sites can describe cases when black was perpetrator, while white victim (which is indeed unfair, because it's mostly Black high crime rate mostly harm other Black). Let him read more of such stuff - and he feels belonging to a group being the victim.

We can avoid talking about what caused it all we like but there's a clear pattern of angry men who are fed lies about "their" culture being overrun by blacks, gays, women, Muslims, Jews, liberals, you name it, and this is the inevitable result. It's not going to just magically go away if we just wait for the Earth to travel around the sun n more times. Maybe racism---at least this type of it---has declined since 1960 (maybe), but are we better off now than in 2000? Or maybe the important year is 2008...? Doesn't seem like it. Or am I just noticing it more? Neither option is very comforting.
Well, this murderer was worried being the only one noticing those crimes of Blacks against Whites... I think that technically speaking they are more prevalent than the other way round...
 
  • #21
mheslep
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Make no mistake, racism is alive and well in the South. They ...

As opposed to ... where else? Please explain how labeling the habits of some ~80 million people is not simple self-satisfied bigotry.
 
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  • #22
WWGD
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As opposed to ... where else? Please explain how labeling the habits of some ~80 million people is not simple self-satisfied bigotry.
Not necessarily, there is such a thing as a general tendency that data may measure. By that account, one would never bother with statistics, which may show general tendencies.
 
  • #23
WWGD
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It may be a good time to try to answer why the U.S as a whole is more violent than any other rich country. The answers may make a plan of action more effective.
 
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  • #26
nsaspook
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That does not contradict my statement, though.

No, it only means that maybe there's no need for some new plan of action and maybe what we are already doing is effective but for sure the media hyping these type of sensational events makes it seem like we are living in a Mad Max movie.
 
  • #27
WWGD
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No, it only means that maybe there's no need for some new plan of action and maybe what we are already doing is effective.
I don't know, the mass shootings every other month make me feel skeptical. The 4x murder rate in the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

suggests otherwise. To be fair, people from Honduras, Venezuela should also be asking some
hard questions about their societies.

EDIT: The data is different in different sources, will continue looking.
 
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