Energy conservation and information conservation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conservation of information during the conversion of energy forms, particularly in the context of black holes and particle interactions. Participants explore concepts related to gravitational energy, photon pair creation, and quantum information, raising questions about the implications of these processes on information loss.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about how information is conserved when energy is converted, particularly in scenarios involving black holes and photon pair creation.
  • There is a challenge to the validity of the "particle pair" concept in the context of energy conversion and information conservation.
  • Questions are raised regarding the fate of quantum information during particle-antiparticle annihilation and its transformation into photon pairs.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the meaning of "information" in this context and seeks clarification from others.
  • Another participant discusses quantum information and its potential loss to black holes, referencing the historical debate between Hawking and Susskind regarding black hole information loss.
  • A participant mentions the black-hole information problem and suggests that Wikipedia provides various candidates for possible answers, highlighting the complexity of the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the nature of information or its conservation in the discussed scenarios. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain regarding the implications of energy conversion and black holes.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying definitions of "information," the complexity of quantum states, and unresolved aspects of the black hole information paradox. The discussion reflects differing levels of understanding and knowledge among participants.

Rocha
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How is information conserved when one form of energy is converted to other?
Like how a black hole's gravitational energy is used to create photon pairs near the event horizon, what happens to the information in the gravitational wavepackets (gravitons?) and how is it not lost?
 
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Rocha said:
How is information conserved when one form of energy is converted to other?
Like how a black hole's gravitational energy is used to create photon pairs near the event horizon, what happens to the information in the gravitational wavepackets (gravitons?) and how is it not lost?
As I explained in your other thread, this "particle pair" thing doesn't stand up to detailed scrutiny.
 
phinds said:
As I explained in your other thread, this "particle pair" thing doesn't stand up to detailed scrutiny.

What about annihilation? What happens to the quantum information in a particle and its antiparticle when they annihilate to give rise to a photon pair?
 
Rocha said:
What about annihilation? What happens to the quantum information in a particle and its antiparticle when they annihilate to give rise to a photon pair?
I don't even understand what "information" means in that context. I'm not suggesting you've asked a bad question, only that I'm have no knowledge that would help. I'm sure someone here will.

What do YOU see as "information" in this context?
 
phinds said:
I don't even understand what "information" means in that context. I'm not suggesting you've asked a bad question, only that I'm have no knowledge that would help. I'm sure someone here will.

What do YOU see as "information" in this context?

I'm talking about quantum information, that's stored in/as quantum states, information that can apparently be lost to black holes.
 
Rocha said:
I'm talking about quantum information, that's stored in/as quantum states, information that can apparently be lost to black holes.
I believe that the black hole information loss war between Hawking and Susskind was resolved in Susskind's favor, with Hawking conceding the correctness of Susskind's conclusion that information is NOT lost in a black hole. I really know next to nothing about all this stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole_War
 
Rocha said:
How is information conserved when one form of energy is converted to other?
Like how a black hole's gravitational energy is used to create photon pairs near the event horizon, what happens to the information in the gravitational wavepackets (gravitons?) and how is it not lost?
Your question is known as the black-hole information problem. Wikipedia offers several candidates for possible answers, each with its advantages and disadvanateges:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox
 

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