Energy Interaction: Work Transfer in a Heated Oven

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of energy transfer in a heated oven, specifically examining how energy is transferred as work versus heat in closed and open systems. Participants explore the implications of mass flow and electrical charge transfer in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that energy transfer in closed systems can occur as heat or work, while open systems can also involve mass flow.
  • Another participant argues that the flow of electrons in the heating element is negligible in terms of mass flow, suggesting the system is effectively closed regarding mass.
  • It is proposed that the power source does work on the system by moving electrical charge, rather than through significant mass flow.
  • There is a suggestion that mass flow is not equated with work, but the negligible mass transfer of electrons does not impact the overall energy transfer significantly.
  • Participants agree that in an open system, energy can be transferred as heat, work, and mass simultaneously.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the flow of electrons constitutes mass flow and how it relates to work. There is no consensus on the characterization of energy transfer in this scenario, indicating ongoing debate.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the negligible mass flux of electrons may not significantly affect the system's classification as closed or open. The discussion also highlights the complexity of defining energy transfer forms in practical scenarios.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for those interested in thermodynamics, energy transfer mechanisms, and the distinctions between closed and open systems in physics.

AirForceOne
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- We know that for closed systems, energy transfer between the system and the environment can be in the form of heat or work.

-We know that for open systems or control volumes, energy transfer between the system and the environment can in the form of heat, work, or mass flow.

Let's say we have a well-insulated oven with a heating element inside. We consider the heating element and the air inside the oven to be the system. When the oven is turned on, energy is transferred in the form of work into the system. This is because the electrons flowing in the heating element crosses into the boundary.

I'm struggling to understand how the energy transferred is in the form of work instead of heat.

Questions:
1) Would the flow of electrons be considered mass flow, making it an open system?
2) If the answer to question #2 is "yes", would mass flow be considered work?

Questions not directly relevant to the problem:
1) In an open system, can energy transferred be both in the form of heat AND work?

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
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AirForceOne said:
1) Would the flow of electrons be considered mass flow, making it an open system?

A flow of electrons is strictly mass flow, but the electron mass flux in a problem like this is absolutely negligible compared to the mass of the system. Most physicists would assume that the system is essentially closed in terms of mass. The much more important consideration is that the power source is doing work on the system in the form of moving electrical charge.

AirForceOne said:
2) If the answer to question #2 is "yes", would mass flow be considered work?

No, mass flow is not generally equated with work. But in this case, the electrons represent a negligible amount of mass transfer and a considerable amount of electrical charge transfer.

AirForceOne said:
1) In an open system, can energy transferred be both in the form of heat AND work?

Sure; energy can enter/leave in the form of heat, work, and/or mass simultaneously.
 
For simplest example of open system loosing energy to work, consider a gas-filled cylinder with a piston as your system. When the gas inside moves the piston, it is the work done by the closed system against whatever is pushing from the other side.
 
Thanks guys! I think I understand now.
 

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