Engineering Science at U of Toronto

[UTENG]

Hi. I will be heading to University in the near future, most likely for engineering or physics. The program I was looking at was http://www.prospective.engineering.utoronto.ca/skule/undergraduate/engsci.htm" . For the first 2 years, the program is about general science and engineering, covering a wide range of topics. Then, in the last 2 years, you pick one of several options. Personally, I am interested in both the Aerospace and Physics options that are offered. My questions are: Would this program be a good choice if I was wanting to go to graduate school after I get my undergraduate degree, or should I look at programs that are dedicated to either Aero Eng or Physics, rather than this mixed program? My next question is, does anyone know what sort of grades are required for this course? Currently I have ~95% in Physics ~90% in Math, and 76% in my first chemistry course (I hope to better in my next one). I still have one more math course, chemistry course, and calculus course to take, so those grades aren't really final.

Thanks in advance.

 

[oedipa maas]

Given your interests, engineering science sounds like a good fit for you. You'd be prepared for both physics and aerospace engineering in grad school if that's the direction you want to take.

 

[Carolyn]

The UT Engsci program is very very very difficult, time consuming and competitive, please be prepared~ I would not discourage you from getting into that program, however, be really prepared~

And if money or grades are your top concerns, please stay away. You would not get rich in that program, nor would you get good grades~

 

[hiddenmist]

Engineering Science is a very demanding course in university of toronto. The class average for that program tends to be much lower than other engineering programs at UfT.

I personally think its worth it if you really enjoy math, physics and engineering courses. I think this engineering program is a lot more broader than other engineering (like EE etc). I seen some students graduating from this program going to med or law school.

 

[vincebs]

If you can stand 30+ hours of class a week (where some days of the week you don't even have a break for lunch) plus homework and term projects, then engineering science might be the program for you.

 

[g33kski11z]

...30+ hours of class every day (where some days of the week you don't even have a break for lunch) ...

.. and all this time I thought Canada had 24 hr days too... hmmm, so that's how you guys have free health care... lol

Yes, it was a joke..

 

[Serbian.matematika]

Yes it is a very difficult program but like everywhere else like; McMaster U , Ryerson U, Waterloo U, etc. Class averages in engineering programs everywhere are lower than in other programs and 30 + hrs a week is common at Ryerson or McMaster and/or Waterloo or any other university. I am at University of Toronto and friend of mine is at Ryerson University, we study together and there is no difference in the program, we use the same books, questions are the same and we do read MIT's questions and solutions since there is no difference among them. Eng Programs are very hard no matter where you study all of them are the same.

Since I am Serbian and here are many profs from Serbia they are telling me U of T engineering programs are much easier then programs in Serbia (former Yugoslavia) and other European countries.

***** maybe we are a bit spoiled in Canada and America comparing to Europe and/or Asia?

 

[Carolyn]

Serbian, I agree with some of your points but actually sometimes the difficulty of a program depends on how competitive your peers are as well as your own expectation. When people say Toronto Engsci program is difficult they don't necessarily mean the curriculum. Most engineering schools share the same cirriculum. But being in Engsci, you are with the brightest people in the university and U of T assigns grades based on how you do compared to other students in the class. About 10% or less gets A's for every class. The same grading system may be used everywhere else, but the student population may not be as strong as in U of T.

In most parts of Asia, the entrance into university is very competitive. However once you are in university, the pressure becomes significanly less. I am not sure about Europe.

Although I am not in U of T myself, I am in a similar program in another Canadian university. I can empathize with the frustration of spending hours and hours on a design project and maybe not having it work upon deadline.

PS: a lot of students in U of T Engsci are Asian/international students, as in most Canadian universities.

PPS: Engsci is actually a Honours combination of Physics, Math and Engineering

 

[vincebs]

.. and all this time I thought Canada had 24 hr days too... hmmm, so that's how you guys have free health care... lol

Yes, it was a joke..

Canada is on a 48-hour day, but each hour is only 30 minutes so it all cancels out :)

 

[UTENG]

Thanks for all the replies. I had heard that it was a very extensive program, but I didn't realize that it had a reputation of being THAT difficult. I'm not really afraid of a challenge and I have no problem working hard, but that still won't make it much easier. In your opinions, do you think it would be better to take a more intense program, but come out with a lower GPA or to take an "easier" program on and come out with a (potentially) higher GPA? Like, going into Grad school or directly into a career, do they look for a higher GPA, or a better program that covers more areas? For example, if Student A takes a normal engineering or physics program and gets a high GPA, and then Student B takes a more difficult course that covers more bases and gets a lower GPA, will they both be considered as equal? Sorry if these questions seem pointless, but it's a tough choice and a major investment, and I want to make sure I do the right thing, so I want all the information I can get :)

 

[makethings]

GPA is how they measure you if you cannot show them anything else like research experience, or papers published which is typically the case for undergrads going into graduate studies. But if you're competent, you can find professors who may overlook a low GPA and still take you since graduate students are often seen as a cheap source of labor.
More importantly, if you're intent is graduate studies, you will want to apply for a NSERC scholarship and then it becomes necessary to have a high GPA to compete. Ideally, you will want one of these scholarships to give you the freedom to find your own supervisor and explore you're own area of interest in research.
If you are going into industry, then work experience you accumulate is far more beneficial than any GPA score.

Try looking at the Mechanical Engineering program that UofT has. You can mix in a few Aerospace courses in 4th year. Its an alternative to going through the EngSci path. Ultimately if you want to pursue aerospace studies, you will have to go do graduate school to gain more depth in knowledge. EngSci is not a prerequisite for that.

 

[vincebs]

Whatever you do, don't go into U of T's Physics or Math and Physics Specialist programs. EngSci Physics, though it involves more work, is 100x better for a career in both academia and industry.

 

[tyro1]

I am in u of t regular engineering, I've got a few friends in eng sci,
The truth I find is, GPA among eng sci's and regular engineering are similar,, until you put the two in the same class room (same course). Then, it happens every time every year, the eng sci's will have 80 averages, while the rest of the engineering students will hover around 60 and 70 averages. Their courses are harder, but the students are smarter,,,so it all cancels out...

I repeat, I am not in engsci but I have friends in engsci. I will lay out what I hear about the program: The program, although it is difficult, it is manageable by majority who are in it. (by majority I mean about 2/3 of the class manage and move on to second year, whilie 1/3 switch off to a different engineering) The tests are inhumanely difficult, or so I've heard. But that will depend on individual courses. I personally know of someone who solved 2 out of 5 questions correctly in a final (to his claim, but who knows) but still walked out with a 100 because, well obviously the rest of the class couldn't even solve those two so the professor had to bell the marks up (its a university policy to pass more than 0 student in a course)

As far as difficulty of the program goes, It will mostly be concentrated on 1st and 2rd year. 3rd and 4th year may be just as difficult, but it won't feel as difficult as 1st or 2nd because you are used to it (As is true elsewhere) But there is another reason why its easier, its because from 3rd year on, you share courses with other majors! (examples: If you take nano option, you share some courses with material engineering, if you take infrastructure option, you share some courss with civil, if you take manufacturing option, you share some courses with Mech and Indies, etc) Most of the difficulty will stem from the intense 5-6 courseload per semester. The difficulty of each individual course, you may find, is actually not that bad (I use this phrase very losely)

Take for example, the Engineering Physics option, which only crazy people apt to choose (by crazy I mean top 10% of engsci class). You can imagin it being super hard!
But, guess what, the courses that they take are shared with regular physics majors! your standard quantum mechanics, classical mechanics, general relativity and what not (pardon me if i miss-quoted a few courses as being standard, i don't know half the stuff that you physics majors usually take)

So its not all that bad you see, you just do the same thing that rest of us do, except jam packed into a shorter amount of time, upping the intensity.

 

[tyro1]

forgot to add: about your question on grad school, the statistic is that 50% of the students go to grad school (so obviously either many make the marks, or the reputation of the program ensures some bonus points)

and I don't know what's the case for engineering physics program but for the Aerospace option, (which only small number of people choose) simply graduating gives them a ticket to the aerospace grad school at u of t,

 

[UTENG]

Thank you Tyro. It's nice to get some first hand (well close enough) information :) Just curious, is there any reason in particular that that Aerospace option is not very popular, or is it just of lesser interest to the majority of people than the other options? On another note, what is U of T like, the campus itself, not the courses?

 

[tyro1]

Thank you Tyro. It's nice to get some first hand (well close enough) information :) Just curious, is there any reason in particular that that Aerospace option is not very popular, or is it just of lesser interest to the majority of people than the other options? On another note, what is U of T like, the campus itself, not the courses?

I really can't say why its not very popular.
I can throw a few guesses tho. There are less jobs out there for aerospace. Especially if your major is so specialized. And plus, designing an aircraft takes many types of specific engineers that design specific parts, not just an aerospace engineer. So you may as well choose electrical/comp/mechanical/material engineering instead who have prospects to find jobs everywhere else. (to be fair, the curriculem is more like an intensified version of mechanical engineering so you are hardly at a loss if you choose it).

But I think that is the general concensus, and people believe there is no point in taking it if you are not going to plan on going to grad school right away, or you absolutely must get a job in the aerospace engineering.

Above is just my guess about people's thoughts, it may or may not be true. To take a view from a different angle. The option may be overshadowed by the massive popularity of a few options, namely, Electrical, computer, and biomedical option. I don't have numbers handy but something like half of the people take electrical or computer option who look foward to getting a job (100% employment rate right out of school with strong starting salaries), and half of the rest take biomedical option('biology is the future' influence is pretty strong around here) who will look towards research/med school. There are 9 options, 75% of the people take 3 of them, out of 250 people in a year, there is not that many left and they scatter to the other options. Infrastructure 10~ physics 10~ aerospace 10~ nano 10~. You get my point.

Campus?
Run down, old, and dirty. Dont come here with high expectations.
Well, let me put things a bit nicely. The university is a very old university (175+ years old!) expect to see some cruddy buildings. But the good side of it is that there are also very new and very beautiful buildings as well as newely renovated old buildings due to recent construction projects.

The engineering section is concentrated around the south west corner of the campus and things are very convenient because all your classes are there. More or less there is a building for each program but they are simply a spiritual home bases, and your major won't lock you down into one building(your classes are scattered around without regard to its type)

I will refrain from rambling about physical characteristics of each building and their main uses, let me select only the good buildings to leave you a nice impression. In the engineering area, there is a building called Bahen Center for Information Technology. Its the biggest, nicest, and the newest building (this is the home base for Comp Sci, Math, eng sci, and Electrical and Computer, But with exception to eng sci, those other departments have multiple home bases) Engsci's have their own computer lab accessible only by them, and the computers are a bit nicer than the rest. Many many rooms and big and nice lecture halls, computer labs, etc. Floors 1 and 2 are for the students, 3 to 8 are research offices for grad students and professors.

There is also the Terrace Donnely Center for Research in Molecular Biology (or something like that). Now I mention this building because its in the engineering section, and it has some affiliation with the biomed option in engsci, but rarely do students get to spend time here (you can go there for fun obviously) its a very nice building. And I do believe SOME classes that biomed people take will be held here. This building is built for research, not students. Again like the Bahen building, This building is a home base for so many departments and programs that I can't name them all here. Interdisciplinary Studies is the up and coming theme.

Faculty of engineering is not the black hole of funding, and you will find a mix of old and new all around the rest of the campus, which you can (and probably will) choose to do your free time studying in (mainly because engineering section is full of guys or girls who don't take care of themselves, no offence intended to girls, while rest of the campus library and study area are full of, well, you know). I will recommend you do most of your important studying in the engineering section, because you are free from distraction from college girls in miniskirts, and you will better build strong bonds with your engineering friends.

Last but not the least, the demographic for engineering department is as follows
40% middle eastern, south asian
30% east asian
20% european
10% etc.
These numbers pulled from faint memories of actual statistic in engineering newspapaer.

I am an east asian myself, but at times I felt like I was an international student in China. We all get along, its nothing new since Toronto is 40% minority anyways. If you are not from Toronto you may find the diversity striking (well I'm guessing because I was surprised too). But most people love the diversity around here.

There is another last thing, If youre in for a party school with more mixing and mangling and social stuff, but with respectable programs, I recommend Western Ontario, Queens U, or McMaster. We are not a party school (and so isn't Waterloo)

Wow Rambling and a half, hope you can find something useful in this post.

 

[makethings]

Just as a side note, there are very few mini-skirts around, many of the girls like to wear jeans. Only do I see miniskirts in the summer time when engineering classes are all done and the summer artsies are out and about.

 

[sonani_deepak]

I believe this is the right kind of program to go for if you want to pursue Graduate Studies. It will give you a very very firm foundation for pursuing grad studies. Also, with your marks, I don't see a major problem, except for your chemistry course. Usually, U of T always asks for some medical reason to repeat a course, or else they consider the first trial. However, your Math & Phyz courses should cover up your 1st chem course. Again, none of those courses must be in night, virtual, summer or private school as universities like Waterloo and U of T strictly prefer day school.
And regarding Engineering Science, I saw U of T's Engineering Faculty's calendar and they define EngSci as an "enriched" program in their calendar, where each of the course is one level above general engineering courses. So, be prepared for rigorous course load in 1st two years.
One last note : On EngSci website, they mentioned that mean admission average of students for EngSci was 91% for last year. I believe this would give you an idea regarding the marks.
My sources: I have a friend in 2nd year EngSci and I myself am starting EngSci from this september.

 

[UTENG]

I believe this is the right kind of program to go for if you want to pursue Graduate Studies. It will give you a very very firm foundation for pursuing grad studies. Also, with your marks, I don't see a major problem, except for your chemistry course. Usually, U of T always asks for some medical reason to repeat a course, or else they consider the first trial. However, your Math & Phyz courses should cover up your 1st chem course. Again, none of those courses must be in night, virtual, summer or private school as universities like Waterloo and U of T strictly prefer day school.
And regarding Engineering Science, I saw U of T's Engineering Faculty's calendar and they define EngSci as an "enriched" program in their calendar, where each of the course is one level above general engineering courses. So, be prepared for rigorous course load in 1st two years.
One last note : On EngSci website, they mentioned that mean admission average of students for EngSci was 91% for last year. I believe this would give you an idea regarding the marks.
My sources: I have a friend in 2nd year EngSci and I myself am starting EngSci from this september.

Hi and thanks for the reply. From what I have read, the EngSci program is definitely good for pursuing graduate studies. I like the idea of having my options open, and engineering science seems to do just that. I'm not 100% sure of what I want to study right now, which was why I was looking at the EngSci program to begin with; a broad program that opens many doors. While my Chemistry mark does bother me, that was my Grade 11 Chemistry course, so I still have a chance to bring the mark back up with my Grade 12 course. The marks in the class were all fairly low, with mine being slightly above average. I'm not sure whether this was due to the teacher, or if it was just something that was difficult for me (It was my lowest mark ever, which I wasn't happy about). The EngSci program seems to be very unique, and I don't want to plan my future education hoping that I get into the program (If I don't get in and I have no other plans, then there aren't many programs like it that I can fall back on) I believe I will explore other options, while keeping EngSci in mind. Engineering seems to be what I want to do, based on my interests, but I'm having trouble pinning down a specific field that I want to study, which is one of the reasons I researched EngSci to begin with. For now I will wait and hopefully the decision will become a little more clear in the future.

 

[UTENG]

I also wanted to add, congrats on starting the EngSci program Sonani, good luck!

 

[sonani_deepak]

Well.. you can always keep TrackOne as an option if you r not sure..
Many ppl in U of T use that if they r not sure... After 1st year, they can shift to any program they want.. but again... note that you canNOT transfer from TrackOne to Engineering Science unless you have som high 90s as your 1st year average...
Best of Luck for your offers.

 

[RedAlert]

I got into EngSci as well, but, I'm beginning to doubt that it's the right program for me.

I'd like to do something in Civil Engineering (and also go to a good grad school), so in the beginning, I felt that the Infrastructure option might be a perfect fit for me.

Living in Toronto (huge city, double the size of Vancouver and far away from home) is something that is unsettling. Also, I don't know how good of a program the infrastructure option will be vs. the normal civil engineering program.

 

[shadowysun]

I'm going to be in this program in September ;D. I've accepted my offer already. Now I've just got to stay in the program... haha. The program seems top-notch in all respects; I'm so excited! =)

I actually like the campus. I've only visited it once, but it's probably one of the better-looking campuses in Canada (unlike some others -cough-Waterloo-cough-).

 

[ferasser]

I have a question about this program as well.
Right now, I am debating between EngSci or Math&CS at the University of Toronto.
My plan is to go to engsci and transfer out to math in second year, because I am pretty sure that I won't like it.
However, I want to give it a try for the learning experience and such.

My question is whether the math and computer science that we'd do in EngSci is adequate to do a Math specialist starting in second year.

 

[rootX]

Last but not the least, the demographic for engineering department is as follows
40% middle eastern, south asian
30% east asian
20% european
10% etc.
These numbers pulled from faint memories of actual statistic in engineering newspapaer.

etc. == Canadians

It's not that surprising though; I have about 60% East Asian - 35% south+middle and 5% White (~3% Canadians out of them) .. in my Electrical class (Waterloo)

 

[tyro1]

I have a question about this program as well.
Right now, I am debating between EngSci or Math&CS at the University of Toronto.
My plan is to go to engsci and transfer out to math in second year, because I am pretty sure that I won't like it.
However, I want to give it a try for the learning experience and such.

My question is whether the math and computer science that we'd do in EngSci is adequate to do a Math specialist starting in second year.

I'd say its adequate,
take a look at engsci first year curriculem and math specialist curriculem online,
theyre pretty much the same (but Engsci covering more subjects). Engsci math is theory based, so it is suitable for math majors.

Although I would suggest that you go straight into math for the Analysis! course that U of T offers. That course is rigorously proof and challenging problems oriented, and you will be taking it with math geniuses. The course code escapes me, and I may not even be correct in its name. But look into it, such course exists.

Ofcourse, if you don't feel the need, you can have a taste of EngSci. I am already guessing that youre trying that route so you can brag about how you got into EngSci :P

 

[ferasser]

Well, EngSci's not actually that hard to get into. I am going that route because its a smaller faculty and the EngSci kids are spoiled with tons of resources and money so I think that that will make the transition from HS easier. I don't want to be lost in the crowd at the Uft Faculty of Arts&Science. Probably a stupid reason, but it makes sense to me. As well, I might like engineering, you never know.

The Analysis course is the main reason that I don't want to go into EngSci. Although a class with a whole bunch an math geniuses is kind of daunting...

 

[tyro1]

Well, EngSci's not actually that hard to get into. I am going that route because its a smaller faculty and the EngSci kids are spoiled with tons of resources and money so I think that that will make the transition from HS easier. I don't want to be lost in the crowd at the Uft Faculty of Arts&Science. Probably a stupid reason, but it makes sense to me. As well, I might like engineering, you never know.

The Analysis course is the main reason that I don't want to go into EngSci. Although a class with a whole bunch an math geniuses is kind of daunting...

engsci has 300 feshmen,
math has something like 20
As far as classes go, you'll feel more cozy in math
I know what you're thinking, you will have big classes when you have electives, but your specialist courses will be small, especially because its math.
And in EngSci, you will be friends with engsci's. If you are going to go into maths later, you'd rather make friends with math people. Sure you can make friends in second year, but its also possible that it may not be the same.


Math is very well funded as well, don't be mistaken about that.
and Engsci is hardest undergrad to get into in U of T except maybe commerce, and its is still up and above among the competitive programs elsewhere. I don't know where youre getting that "engsci is easy to get into" from. Sure, a lot of people can get into it no problem, but the situation is the same for every university program in Canada. And its definately harder to get into than math.

I am not trying to convince you to a certain choice, but make sure you understand the whole situation before you make your choice. Hek, I would actually want to convince you to take engsci all the way and take their physics option if I could.

edit: one more thing, if studying with geniuses are daunting to you, you definately don't want to go into engsci, you will find even more geniuses there. Not that you shouldn't I want to make the point that studying with geniuses is a good thing.

 

[ferasser]

Really, only 20 freshmen in math? I find that hard to believe considering utoronto is very well known for math and they are such a large school. At Waterloo they have a whole faculty filled with mathies, and its a smaller school so I assumed that there would be at least as many at Toronto. I am very intimidating by the way everyone says Uft is a cold, commuter school and it's very lonely, plus engscis have all their own councillors and buildings and stuff like that.

I don't think that EngSci is particularily easy to get into, its just easier not as hard as some of the top business programs or Health Science or something. You don't even really need a supplementary application or anything.

How is studying with geniuses a good thing?
Also, do you know if there are certain requirements for taking the analysis course, or is it open to anyone who wants to do the math specialist?

I am kind of intriuged by the design aspect of engineering, its just all the second year science courses in engsci that I really have no desire to take, but we'll see. Maybe I will change my mind and engsci will open my mind and all of a sudden I will like science.

Anyways, thanks for the info.

 

[tyro1]

Really, only 20 freshmen in math? I find that hard to believe considering utoronto is very well known for math and they are such a large school. At Waterloo they have a whole faculty filled with mathies, and its a smaller school so I assumed that there would be at least as many at Toronto. I am very intimidating by the way everyone says Uft is a cold, commuter school and it's very lonely, plus engscis have all their own councillors and buildings and stuff like that.

How is studying with geniuses a good thing?
Also, do you know if there are certain requirements for taking the analysis course, or is it open to anyone who wants to do the math specialist?

I am kind of intriuged by the design aspect of engineering, its just all the second year science courses in engsci that I really have no desire to take, but we'll see. Maybe I will change my mind and engsci will open my mind and all of a sudden I will like science.

Anyways, thanks for the info.

You know what, forget that I said there are 20 undergrads in math. I have no source to back it up. However, that info i got about 5 years ago from a math major (and he actually said 30, and that it got down to 5 in some upper year math courses so I sort of mushed up the numbers). But its definately less than a 100. Note that non math majors can take math courses, so unless you take MAT157, your math classes will be big.

If you know howmany math major students there are in waterloo, its probably something similar in u of t. It only seem bigger because that department provides for other majors as well (actuarial, comp sci etc) and I guarantee you, its not as big as EngSci

Anyways, size matter aside, I just want you to know, its not like math majors are left out in the cold by the math department and engsci's are spoon fed every meal. If engsci's do get any special treatment it won't be too much more than math majors. And engsci's don't own a building, they share it with math/compsci/ECE in which there is a common room for each of the departments. (To think of it, I havent' seen a math common room but they do have their own library there)

I don't think that EngSci is particularily easy to get into, its just easier not as hard as some of the top business programs or Health Science or something. You don't even really need a supplementary application or anything.

My bad, I misread your remark.

How is studying with geniuses a good thing?

You wouldn't rather have classes with stupid people would you :P Well to explain,

If you hang around with geniuses, you will learn from them. If you have classes with geniuses, the professor will make sure the course has high standards

If you wish to feed off of low standards that comes out of having classes with average people, it is only a false sense of achievement.

Sure it may lower your self esteem to always compare yourself to geniuses, but it is better than growing arrogant because only people you could compare yourself against are average people, and obviously you are much better than them, giving you a false impression that you must be the smartest person on earth. And then you hit the real world and you will feel worthless.

If you can't agree with me that studying with geniuses is a good thing, I hope you can at least agree that its not a bad thing. Dont let this kind of stuff prevent you from picking a course you like is what I'm saying.

Also, do you know if there are certain requirements for taking the analysis course, or is it open to anyone who wants to do the math specialist?

Academic or aptitude requirements? No, from what I know its got no restrictions. I think you are strongly recommended to take it if you are a specialist even. And I don't even think admission to the math program is a requirement either. If its got space, anybody can take it.

Also, do you know if there are certain requirements for taking the analysis course, or is it open to anyone who wants to do the math specialist?

I am kind of intriuged by the design aspect of engineering, its just all the second year science courses in engsci that I really have no desire to take, but we'll see. Maybe I will change my mind and engsci will open my mind and all of a sudden I will like science.

What you must be looking foward to is that "Engineering Science Praxis" course that engscis have to take in first year. But its just cutting up styrofoam/wood/paper and putting together a contraception that you get to work by trial and error, and is different than real 'engineering design'. If you are interested in the "Design aspect of engineering" you'll have to continue taking engineering until the upper years

But, you'll probably have fun taking it. If you continue to second year, it keeps on going and you'll be taking more of those course.



It looks like you want to take engsci, for whavever reason (you have good reasons). But I just don't see the point of enjoying their "councilors, design courses, good funding" for one year, and then switching out to the "under funded, cold, lonely" department of mathematics.

So I've been talking all this so you know, math probably won't be as bad as you think, why not just stick with one and go with it.

Don't like science? you'll be taking plenty science/engineering in first year engsci anyways. (biology, thermodynamics, relativity, classical mechanics,structures and materials,circuits, programming all in first year) If you can endure that, you can endure more.

Dont like the environment in the math department? if you're willing to endure it for 2nd 3rd 4th year, then you can probably endure it for the first year.

Anyways, the choice is up to you, and to tell you the truth, either choice won't ruin your life. If anything, at least if you get into engsci, you can switch out into math, not the other way around. So there you go, go into engsci first and see how you like it.

 

[swmelon]

Hey, congrats to those who received admission offers.
I am a EngSci (Nano Option) who's about to graduate (unless I failed my last exams…j/k). I can tell you that many things people mentioned about the Engineering Science program are quite true. Allow me to add a few more comments and elaborate on a few things here.

You get to choose your specialization later after 2nd year - this would be a great thing if you have lots of interests in all sorts of areas and you don't want to choose your major yet. You will be taking courses from various areas where many of them are taught by professors who are active in their own fields – they try to teach you to have the solid fundamentals and appreciation for all these subjects. By the end of your 2nd yr, you will have better feel which areas you really like and you are good at (+highly interdisciplinary background). However, if you know what major you want now and it's especially something traditional (Elec, CS, Civ, Mech, Chem, pure physics (not applied/engineering), etc.), Engineering Science may not be best suited for you. The curriculum is not so focused and it's hard to learn in depth in any of the areas till after 2nd year. And you may need some time to catch up later on to reach the same kind of level as students of other programs of the same year. This may be immediately apparent in 3rd yr as you share your 3rd yr classes with non-EngSci students. Even if you are interested one of the "unique" options (Biomed, Aero, Nano etc.), it's similar story. For example, if you choose Aero, some of the things learned in 1st and 2nd yr such as quantum mechanics and biomedical engineering wouldn't be so useful, and time would have been better spent by taking more relevant courses. Make sure you know what you will be learning by checking out their curriculum – it slightly changes from year to year.

Let me elaborate on the difficulty of the program. Chance is that you will enter the program with your high school grades in 90s. In your 1st year, your average will likely drop to 70s - that's even after bell curving and this kind of average will continue in 2nd yr and so on. Now, this sounds tough. But by constantly challenging yourself and pushing the boundaries in order to survive, you should be able earn tremendous amount of soft skills such as time-management, team work (from study groups/group projects), how to work under pressure and motivate yourself, etc. Expect a few all nighters and shower-less days and trashing your design project that never worked. But finding out (early) that doing an assignment can actually take you longer than 10 mins is something worthwhile.

About the reputation of the program, in Canada, it's very well recognized as one of the top engineering programs. It should be definitely advantageous when you apply for jobs (including summer research jobs) and grad schools in Canada. However, outside Canada, it is not always well known and you can't always rely on its reputation. Still, University of Toronto itself does have its worldwide reputation and Canadian universities in general seem to be known for more rigorous undergraduate education than most of US schools. But then, my feeling is that the reputation of place where you got undergraduate degree from wouldn’t matter much as you advance further in your career. (Industry will value your work experience most and academia will value your postgraduate works more)

In terms of student demographics (not exactly sure why people are interested in this), it is as diverse as the city of Toronto itself. I think many of them are Canadian citizen or permanent resident though. The largest number of undergrad international students at UofT (not engineering) is from US, followed by China.

Places dedicated for EngScis - well we do have a nice conference room (for study and student group meetings) and computer room that are recently renovated and located at a place near most of enigeering classrooms.

My piece of advice is that wherever you decide to go, make best out of the learning opportunities and prepare yourself well for the next level. What you learn in university will go long way in your life than your grades. You can’t just seat back and expect your “prestigious” program will provide all the top-quality education and get you the jobs for you. Be actively engaged in your education – ask questions, read outside lectures, form study groups etc. (also, remember how much tuition you are paying) And think ahead and plan early for your summer break (4 mth of summer can get really boring) and life after graduation.

I know a friend (was in physics option) who didn't enjoy the EngSci program much and switched to art&science physics program at the end of 3rd year(!). But he knew what he was doing and ended up very fine – he is going to work with a Nobel laureate in experimental physics at a top physics grad school next year. So I guess a lot depend on you.

Just curious, is there any reason in particular that that Aerospace option is not very popular, or is it just of lesser interest to the majority of people than the other options?

Aerospace is actually a popular option in EngSci program compared to physics, nano, manu, and infra. Many of my aero friends seem to be doing okay and happy with the program so I can’t express much concern about the program. One annoying thing may be the Aerospace department (UTIAS) is near Downsview airport (~30 min) away from downtown campus so you may have to travel there often while working on your 4th year thesis project. In terms of job prospect, I think there are less jobs available in aero compared to Biomeds, and Elec. I heard Biomed got very good prospects in terms of opportunity and money and many people enter EngSci to specialize in that option.

Oh, forgot to mention one important thing – if you don’t like any of the options you can create your own option and take any of Engineering/Art&Science courses in your upper years as long as you know what you’re doing and it meets the accreditation criteria set by the professional engineering board. Within your option you can also take courses that are not part of your upper year curriculum if you are able to get an approval from the option chair which is usually easy (and meet the accreditation criteria, of course).

 

[glueball8]

Hi, I want to be a theoretical physicist. I'm planning to go to grad school for theoretical physics. Which do you think is better for me, to take EngSci or Physics?

Should I/How could I double major in EngSci and Physics?

There's a special program (course) in UofT that 1st physics majors can do research, can I still take that if I'm in EngSci?

 

[mutton]

Should I/How could I double major in EngSci and Physics?

Seems quite infeasible, as the EngSci course load will already take up all your time. You can count how much physics you can take through the EngSci physics option relative to a physics specialist.

There's a special program (course) in UofT that 1st physics majors can do research, can I still take that if I'm in EngSci?

I don't know, cf. http://engsci.utoronto.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=66&Itemid=99

 

[glueball8]

Seems quite infeasible, as the EngSci course load will already take up all your time. You can count how much physics you can take through the EngSci physics option relative to a physics specialist.



I don't know, cf. http://engsci.utoronto.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=66&Itemid=99

How about summer school? How much is the difference?

 

[mutton]

These were the PHY courses offered in Summer 2008: http://www.artsandscience.utoronto.ca/ofr/timetable/summer/phy.htm

I'm in math not physics, so I don't know whether it is indicative of other years that no upper-year physics courses are offered in summer.