EoM in Schwarzschild geometry: geodesic v Hamilton formalism

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the comparison of two approaches to simulate the trajectory of a timelike geodesic in Schwarzschild geometry: the geodesic equations of motion and the Hamiltonian formalism. Participants are examining the discrepancies in the outputs of their Mathematica scripts, which are intended to yield equivalent results.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the Hamiltonian approach produces a geodesic falling directly into the event horizon, while the geodesic equation approach yields a precessing orbit.
  • Another participant questions whether the two approaches produce the same equations of motion and suggests checking this in Mathematica.
  • Some participants express doubt that the same equations and conditions could yield different results, proposing that there may be a programming or setup error rather than a physics issue.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the definition of momentum in the Hamiltonian approach, with a participant asserting that the momentum should be defined as ##p = \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}}## rather than ##p = \dot{q}##.
  • One participant suggests that the Hamilton-Jacobi approach might be relevant, but expresses uncertainty about its application in the context of the scripts provided.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of verifying the symbolic equivalence of the equations of motion derived from the Hamiltonian and geodesic approaches.
  • There are mentions of specific issues in the Mathematica code, including warnings about stiff systems and poorly behaved inverse metrics at certain angles.
  • Concerns are raised about the physical plausibility of the outputs, particularly regarding the stability of orbits and the behavior of angular momentum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the equivalence of the Hamiltonian and geodesic approaches, with some suggesting that discrepancies in outputs indicate a problem with the setup or coding rather than the underlying physics. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact nature of the differences and their implications.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in the Mathematica scripts, including issues with the definition of momentum, the behavior of the inverse metric, and the handling of initial conditions. There are also unresolved mathematical steps related to the symbolic verification of the equations of motion.

  • #31
vanhees71 said:
It becomes the same equation, given that for an affine parameter A=constA=constA=\text{const}.

Ah, the missing fact, thanks.
 
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  • #32
pervect said:
Possibly I'm confused, but something seems wrong here.

Let's take the flat space case when ##g_{\mu\nu} = \eta_{\mu\nu}## = diag(-1,1,1,1), so we have a -+++ metric signature.

We know that the relativistic Lagrangian for a free particle in the above flat space-time should be ##L = -m\,c^2 \sqrt{1-\beta^2}##, where ##\beta = v/c##. If we use geometric units so that c=1, we can write this as:

##L(t,\textbf{x},\frac{d \textbf{x}}{dt}) = -m \, \sqrt{ -g_{\mu\nu} \frac{dx^\mu}{dt} \frac{dx^\nu}{dt}}##

It's one of those lucky miracles that you get the same equations of motion using:

L = -m \sqrt{g_{\mu \nu} \frac{dx^\mu}{ds} \frac{dx^\nu}{ds}}

or

L =\frac{m}{2} g_{\mu \nu} \frac{dx^\mu}{ds} \frac{dx^\nu}{ds}

(Actually, the first gives more solutions than the second, but every solution to the first can be converted into a solution of the second by reparametrizing s)
 
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