Erdos, the Hungarians And other scientists of the era

[pinball1970]

Oh. He's dead.

He was a bit nuts from what I have read. Brilliant, prolific but nuts.

 

[WWGD]

He was a bit nuts from what I have read. Brilliant, prolific but nuts.

IIRC, he said "A Mathematician is a machine to turn coffee into theorems".

 

[sbrothy]

He was a bit nuts from what I have read. Brilliant, prolific but nuts.

Isn't that sadly usually true? Often there's a thin line between genius and mental illness? Often geniuses (genii?) are either on the spectrum, bipolar and/or paranoid schizophrenic. They can solve Einstein's field equations while doing the daily crossword, but tying their own shoelaces is beyond them, and often they lack social skills.

 

[pinball1970]

Isn't that sadly usually true? Often there's a thin line between genius and mental illness? Often geniuses (genii?) are either on the spectrum, bipolar and/or paranoid schizophrenic. They can solve Einstein's field equations while doing the daily crossword, but tying their own shoelaces is beyond them, and often they lack social skills.

I like this quote from Einstein.

... a note from 1926 letter to Paul Ehrenfest, Albert Einstein wrote of a Dirac paper, "I am toiling over Dirac. This balancing on the dizzying path between genius and madness is awful."

 

[pinball1970]

Isn't that sadly usually true? Often there's a thin line between genius and mental illness? Often geniuses (genii?) are either on the spectrum, bipolar and/or paranoid schizophrenic. They can solve Einstein's field equations while doing the daily crossword, but tying their own shoelaces is beyond them, and often they lack social skills.

Cantor struggled with depression as did Paul Ehrenfest who eventually killed his son, then took his own life. 1000s of brilliant scientists and I suppose the eccentrics get a lot of the headlines.
Even Feynman struggled after the war, hardly surprising after his wife died in her twenties and he was part of the Manhattan project. Not easy losing to lose love of your life and knowing you helped send 150,000 people to the grave. I would lose sleep on that.

 

[sbrothy]

One of the stories I find saddest and most unfair is GB's treatment of Alan Turing. He helped them win the war and, as a thank you very much, drove him to suicide by "treating" his homosexuality.

Oh, I didn't read the full story. It might not be that simple. But he certainly wasn't treated well.

 

[pinball1970]

One of the stories I find saddest and most unfair is GB's treatment of Alan Turing. He helped them win the war and, as a thank you very much, drove him to suicide by "treating" his homosexuality.

Oh, I didn't read the full story. It might not be that simple. But he certainly wasn't treated well.

In my city no less. Not something to be proud of if you are a science enthusiast from Manchester. He is commemorated all over the city centre these days.

 

[sbrothy]

Cantor struggled with depression as did Paul Ehrenfest who eventually killed his son, then took his own life. 1000s of brilliant scientists and I suppose the eccentrics get a lot of the headlines.
Even Feynman struggled after the war, hardly surprising after his wife died in her twenties and he was part of the Manhattan project. Not easy losing to lose love of your life and knowing you helped send 150,000 people to the grave. I would lose sleep on that.

Yeah, that's tough.

I've always found it a little hypocritical that Ernst Rutherford refused to shake hands with Fritz Haber. I can't remember if it was before or after Haber's Nobel-prize. Yes, he invented chlorine-gas but did he have any choice? At least they were so chocked at it's effectiveness that they forgot to react at first.

At least he invented his fertilizer process afterwards making the Earth capable of sustaining several bilions more. I'm not saying that these even out. But what did Rutherford do?

Rutherford was one of those who discovered the chain-reaction. That he didn't believe in the idea doesn't, in my opinion, make him better.

 

[pines-demon]

I recently learned about this one:

Graham was not the only one who had to put up with [Paul] Erdös's kitchen antics. "Once I spent a few days with Paul," said Janos Path, a fellow Hungarian emigre. "When I entered the kitchen in the evening, I was met with a horrible sight. The floor was covered by pools of blood-like red liquid. The trail led to the refrigerator. I opened the door, and to my great surprise saw a carton of tomato juice on its side with a gaping hole. Paul must have felt thirsty and, after some reflection, decided to get the juice out of the carton by stabbing it with a big knife."

From: https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/hoffman-man.html

 

[Andrew Mason]

Yeah, that's tough.

I've always found it a little hypocritical that Ernst Rutherford refused to shake hands with Fritz Haber. I can't remember if it was before or after Haber's Nobel-prize. Yes, he invented chlorine-gas but did he have any choice? At least they were so chocked at it's effectiveness that they forgot to react at first.

It was in 1933, long after Haber's 1918 Nobel prize for making nitrogen fertilizer. The reason, however, is not entirely clear. Rutherford maintained a life-long friendship with Otto Hahn, with whom he worked closely in his Montreal lab. Hahn had worked with Fritz Haber in Germany during WWI developing chlorine gas. In fact Hahn nearly died from accidental exposure to the gas in the laboratory. Maybe Rutherford refused to shake Haber's hand because he had treated Hahn poorly....

But what did Rutherford do?

Really!!?

Rutherford was one of those who discovered the chain-reaction. That he didn't believe in the idea doesn't, in my opinion, make him better.

After his laboratory at Cambridge succeeded in splitting a lithium nucleus, he famously stated: "Anyone who expects a source of power from the transformation of these atoms is talking moonshine". He was right, of course. No one has seriously suggested using nuclear fission of lithium for power generation.

AM

 

[pinball1970]

Yeah, that's tough.

I've always found it a little hypocritical that Ernst Rutherford refused to shake hands with Fritz Haber. I can't remember if it was before or after Haber's Nobel-prize. Yes, he invented chlorine-gas but did he have any choice? At least they were so chocked at it's effectiveness that they forgot to react at first.

At least he invented his fertilizer process afterwards making the Earth capable of sustaining several bilions more. I'm not saying that these even out. But what did Rutherford do?

Rutherford was one of those who discovered the chain-reaction. That he didn't believe in the idea doesn't, in my opinion, make him better.

Haber said "In peacetime the scientist belongs to humanity, in war time, to his fatherland."

Rutherford may have snubbed him after the war (great war)

It made Einstein's visit to the UK that much more important (I started a thread on this)

 

[sbrothy]

Rings true. Just think of Operation Paperclip. They weren't asked if they wanted to participate. Some of them was a little too enthusiastic in my opinion. Ulam and his "super" for instance. OTOH, someone would have created it anyway. Anyway, at least fusion has peaceful uses. I read that India, due to it's abundance of Thorium mines are going to try to mature Thorium-reactors. The only reason we're left with all this plutonium was due to the cold war.

 

[Baluncore]

One of the stories I find saddest and most unfair is GB's treatment of Alan Turing. He helped them win the war and, as a thank you very much, drove him to suicide by "treating" his homosexuality.

His early death put him in a position where others could say, "Turing told me that ...", and by doing so, managed to avoid the official secrets act in the 1970s.

He certainly did not crack Enigma, the Poles did that starting in 1932, then in 1939, when he could not follow the technique they provided, he met them in Paris and asked them to explain it to him.

The Imitation Game is a fiction, giving information that is totally wrong.

 

[sbrothy]

It was in 1933, long after Haber's 1918 Nobel prize for making nitrogen fertilizer. The reason, however, is not entirely clear. Rutherford maintained a life-long friendship with Otto Hahn, with whom he worked closely in his Montreal lab. Hahn had worked with Fritz Haber in Germany during WWI developing chlorine gas. In fact Hahn nearly died from accidental exposure to the gas in the laboratory. Maybe Rutherford refused to shake Haber's hand because he had treated Hahn poorly....

Really!!?

After his laboratory at Cambridge succeeded in splitting a lithium nucleus, he famously stated: "Anyone who expects a source of power from the transformation of these atoms is talking moonshine". He was right, of course. No one has seriously suggested using nuclear fission of lithium for power generation.

AM

OK. So things a rarely simple. I can see how it came off as arrogant that I think Rutherford accomplished nothing. That was an error. I mean: what have I accomplished recently?!

 

[martinbn]

He was a bit nuts from what I have read. Brilliant, prolific but nuts.

I think he was just ecentric, definitely not insane.

 

[Baluncore]

I mean: what have I accomplished recently?

By the time J. C. Maxwell was my age, he had been dead for 23 years.

 

[pinball1970]

I think he was just ecentric, definitely not insane.

Taking simulant drugs daily, having virtually no possessions, living as a nomad and just caring about Mathematics is certainly not conventional by todays or most other days standards.
I have the book, "The man who loved only numbers," somewhere.

 

[pinball1970]

He collaborated with a lot of mathematicians. Here is one.

 

[martinbn]

Taking simulant drugs daily, having virtually no possessions, living as a nomad and just caring about Mathematics is certainly not conventional by todays or most other days standards.
I have the book, "The man who loved only numbers," somewhere.

Yes, I said he was eccentric.

 

[sbrothy]

I think he was just ecentric, definitely not insane.

Obviously, not all of the scientific contributors are mentally unstable. That would be a gross overgeneralization!

EDIT: Bigoted, even.

 

[sbrothy]

Yes, I said he was eccentric.

A little like Philip K. Dick. A schizophrenic amphetamine addict who wrote a lot of popular stories, many of which has been made into movies!

 

[sbrothy]

His early death put him in a position where others could say, "Turing told me that ...", and by doing so, managed to avoid the official secrets act in the 1970s.

He certainly did not crack Enigma, the Poles did that starting in 1932, then in 1939, when he could not follow the technique they provided, he met them in Paris and asked them to explain it to him.

The Imitation Game is a fiction, giving information that is totally wrong.

You're right, he didn't crack Enigma. It was, as you say, the Polish intelligence, no? But it's a die-hard myth.

 

[sbrothy]

Taking simulant drugs daily, having virtually no possessions, living as a nomad and just caring about Mathematics is certainly not conventional by todays or most other days standards.
I have the book, "The man who loved only numbers," somewhere.

Didn't Anthony Garret Lisi more or less live like that. In a camper surfing daily? Perhaps it was just a vacation...

 

[pinball1970]

The Imitation Game is a fiction, giving information that is totally wrong.

What about the "Bombe?" Bletchley said he was instrumental in "scaling up."

(This is still on topic because Turing is from the same era, he was born the year before Paul Edros.)

Some info on Turing’s contribution but that depends on how accurate the information is on these platforms.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/second-world-war/how-alan-turing-cracked-the-enigma-code

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/about/history-heritage/history/heroes/alan-turing/

 

[Baluncore]

What about the "Bombe?" Bletchley said he was instrumental in "scaling up."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombe
"The British bombe was developed from a device known as the "bomba", which had been designed in Poland at the Cipher Bureau by cryptologist Marian Rejewski, who had been breaking German Enigma messages for the previous seven years, using it and earlier machines."

Breaking Enigma involved cryptanalysis, and developing new methods of key identification. Reading Enigma involved finding the different daily keys, of the many networks then in operation. Following their meeting in Paris, the Poles identified Turing as a mathematician, not a cryptanalyst.

Turing made early stepwise improvements to the Polish Bomba design, but it was Gordon Welchman who invented the "Diagonal Board", the addition which made the British Bombe orders of magnitude more productive. That cryptanalytic realisation was not made by Turing.

 

[Baluncore]

I think he was just ecentric, definitely not insane.

I agree. Erdős was certainly not insane.

I have seen enough to identify Erdős as being at the Asperger end of the autistic spectrum. He was almost a recluse, anxious about meeting new people, and unable to socialise with groups.

Erdős was a mathematical prodigy, who could fixate intensely, on the thoughts of one other mathematician, or one mathematical problem at the time.

To Erdős, his trusted friends were like reliable stepping stones, that crossed a raging river of anxiety. He remained standing, with both feet on a stone where he felt safe, frozen by the anxiety of taking a step, onto an unknown stone.