Euler-Lagrange equation derivation

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equation from the classical action, focusing on proving the equivalence of two integrals involving the Lagrangian. Participants explore the mathematical foundations and generalizations of derivatives in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks assistance in proving the equivalence of two integrals related to the Lagrangian, expressing an intuitive understanding but struggling with the mathematical proof.
  • Another participant suggests focusing on the equality of the expressions under the integrals rather than the integrals themselves, introducing the definition of the derivative for a single variable and its generalization to two variables.
  • A later reply acknowledges understanding the one-variable case but expresses surprise at the generalization to two variables, indicating a learning moment.
  • Further elaboration on the application of the one-variable definition of the derivative is provided, breaking down the terms involved in the two-variable case.
  • One participant expresses discomfort with disregarding terms based on their smallness but recognizes that such terms would indeed be negligible in the context of the derivation referenced.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the approach to understanding the derivation, but there is some discomfort regarding the treatment of small terms in the mathematical reasoning. The discussion remains focused on clarifying the mathematical steps rather than reaching a consensus on the derivation itself.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the implications of disregarding small terms in the derivation, highlighting the need for careful consideration of assumptions in mathematical proofs.

silmaril89
Messages
85
Reaction score
0
I'm trying to understand the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equation from the classical action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action...93Lagrange_equations_for_the_action_integral" has been my main source so far. The issue I'm having is proving the following equivalence:

<br /> \int_{t_1}^{t_2} [L(x_{true} + \varepsilon, \dot{x}_{true} + \dot{\varepsilon},t) - L(x_{true}, \dot{x}_{true},t)] \mathrm{d}t = \int_{t_1}^{t_2} (\varepsilon \frac{\partial L}{\partial x} + \dot{\varepsilon} \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}}) \mathrm{d}t<br />

I understand the idea behind their equivalence intuitively, The derivative of a function is the change in that function, and I see how on the left side there is a representation of a small change in the lagrangian, but I'm having a hard time proving this to myself mathematically and I'd like some help.

I understand all the other steps shown in the derivation.

Thanks to anyone that responds.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
You should ignore the integral, and just focus on showing that the things under the integrals are equal. If you have a function f(x), then by definition of the derivative:

[f(x+h)-f(x)]/h=f'(x)

when h goes to zero.

Therefore f(x+h)-f(x)=h*f'(x)

This is for one variable, and the generalization to two variables is:

f(x+h,y+g)-f(x,y)=h*Dxf+g*Dyf

where Dx and Dy are the partial derivatives in the x-direction and y-direction respectively.

So just let y be x dot, and f be your Lagrangian, and you get the result.
 
Ok, that makes sense. I understand how it works with just one independent variable, but I did not realize the generalization to two variables. Thanks for that.
 
Last edited:
silmaril89 said:
Ok, that makes sense. I understand how it works with just one independent variable, but I didn't not realize the generalization to two variables. Thanks for that.

O, I didn't know that you know how it works with one variable. In that case:

f(x+h,y+g)-f(x,y)=[f(x+h,y+g)-f(x,y+g)]+[f(x,y+g)-f(x,y)]=
h*Dxf(x,y+g)+g*Dyf(x,y)

which you get just from the 1-variable definition of the derivative.

Now the key is that applying the one variable definition of the derivative again:

h*Dxf(x,y+g)=h*Dxf(x,y)+g*h*DxDyf(x,y)

and if g and h are really small, just keep the first term.

So f(x+h,y+g)-f(x,y)=h*Dxf(x,y+g)+g*Dyf(x,y)=h*Dxf(x,y)+g*Dyf(x,y)
 
Thanks for clearing that up for me. That's a clever trick to apply the one variable definition again. To be honest, it's bit unsettling to me that we disregard a term based on g and h being very small. However, I do realize in the derivation on the wikipedia page I linked that that term would be very small.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K