Evaluating a limit with a factorial

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    Factorial Limit
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around evaluating the limit of the expression $$\lim_{{n}\to{\infty}} \frac{R^n}{n!}$$, focusing on the behavior of the sequence as \( n \) approaches infinity. Participants explore bounding techniques and the implications of factorial growth compared to exponential growth, with a particular emphasis on the role of constants and the choice of \( M \).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant introduces the limit and expresses confusion about a specific step involving the product of factors in the expression.
  • Another participant suggests that since \( R < M + 1 \), the factors \( \frac{R}{M+k} \) for \( k = 1,\dots,n-M-1 \) can be replaced by 1, leading to a bounding expression.
  • A similar point is reiterated by another participant, emphasizing the importance of finding a bounding constant rather than a tight bound.
  • There is a question raised about the evaluation of the bounding expression, leading to a correction regarding the placement of constants in the inequality.
  • A later reply acknowledges the mix-up in constants and clarifies that \( C \) can be taken as \( \frac{R^M}{M!} \), leading to a revised bounding expression.
  • One participant notes that regardless of the constant \( R \), the factorial grows faster than the exponential term, suggesting that this is a key consideration in evaluating the limit.
  • Humor is introduced as a participant reflects on their earlier confusion, indicating a light-hearted approach to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the bounding expressions and the constants involved, indicating that there is no consensus on the exact formulation of the limit evaluation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the tightness of the bounds and the implications of the constants.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for careful consideration of constants and the growth rates of factorials versus exponentials, but the discussion does not resolve the specific mathematical steps or assumptions made in the bounding process.

tmt1
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We are starting sequences, and in one of the examples we have this limit:

$$\lim_{{n}\to{\infty}} \frac{R^n}{n!}$$

We let $M$ equal a non-negative integer such that $ M \le R < M + 1$

I don't get the following step:

For $n > M$, we write $Rn/n!$ as a product of n factors:

$$\frac{R^n}{n!} = (\frac{R}{1} \frac{R}{2} ... \frac{R}{M}) (\frac{R}{M + 1}) (\frac{R}{M + 2}) ... (\frac{R}{n}) \le C(\frac{R}{n})$$
 
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Since $R < M+1$ all the factors $\dfrac{R}{M+k}$ for $k = 1,\dots,n-M-1$ are less than $1$, so we can replace them all by $1$.

That just leaves the factors $\dfrac{R^M}{M!}$ and $\dfrac{R}{n}$.

Thus $\dfrac{R^n}{n!} \leq \dfrac{R^{M+1}}{M!}\cdot \dfrac{1}{n}$

and we can let $C$ be the constant $\dfrac{R^{M+1}}{M!}$ (what this constant will be depends on what $R$ is).

The important thing about problems like this is that we're just looking for *some* bounding constant, it doesn't have to be a *tight* bound.
 
Deveno said:
Since $R < M+1$ all the factors $\dfrac{R}{M+k}$ for $k = 1,\dots,n-M-1$ are less than $1$, so we can replace them all by $1$.

That just leaves the factors $\dfrac{R^M}{M!}$ and $\dfrac{R}{n}$.

Thus $\dfrac{R^n}{n!} \leq \dfrac{R^{M+1}}{M!}\cdot \dfrac{1}{n}$

and we can let $C$ be the constant $\dfrac{R^{M+1}}{M!}$ (what this constant will be depends on what $R$ is).

The important thing about problems like this is that we're just looking for *some* bounding constant, it doesn't have to be a *tight* bound.

In that case, shouldn't it evaluate to $\frac{R^n}{n!} \le \frac{C}{n} $ where $C$ equals $\dfrac{R^{M+1}}{M!}$ instead of $\frac{R^n}{n!} \le \frac{CR}{n} $ ?
 
tmt said:
In that case, shouldn't it evaluate to $\frac{R^n}{n!} \le \frac{C}{n} $ where $C$ equals $\dfrac{R^{M+1}}{M!}$ instead of $\frac{R^n}{n!} \le \frac{CR}{n} $ ?

Oops, it looks like I lumped too many $R$'s together (or I missed the $R$ in the numerator in the original problem).

So yes, we can take $C = \dfrac{R^M}{M!}$, and obtain $\dfrac{R^n}{n!} \leq C\dfrac{R}{n}$

It's not really going to matter, as soon as $n$ gets much larger than $CR$ (which is *still* a constant, so $n$ *will* get bigger eventually, because the reals are an Archimedean field), the ratio $\dfrac{CR}{n}$ is going to (eventually) get very small;

(for an official "epsilon" proof, you would take $n >> \dfrac{CR}{\epsilon}$ so that:

$\dfrac{R^n}{n!} \leq \dfrac{CR}{n} < (CR)\dfrac{\epsilon}{CR} = \epsilon$), which would show the limit is (rigorously) zero.

The thing to realize here, is that no matter how big a constant $R$ is, we can't exponentiate such an $R$ fast enough to overtake the factorial (factorials grow very fast), although for large values of $R$, the numerator may start growing faster "at first" (that why we need to be clever about picking $M$).

Sorry about the mix-up (can I blame my cell phone? No? How about Alzheimer's?).
 

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