Excited state line width and thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phenomenon of excited state line width in atoms and its implications for energy conservation during excitation and de-excitation processes. Participants explore the relationship between the width of spectral lines, the lifetime of excited states, and the potential energy changes involved, while also considering thermodynamic principles.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how energy conservation is reconciled when an atom emits a photon with a frequency higher than that of the photon used for excitation, given the width of the spectral line.
  • Another participant suggests that temperature and pressure broadening could explain the energy dynamics involved in the excitation and de-excitation processes.
  • A further reply proposes that excited states can "borrow" energy from their local environment, including other excited entities.
  • One participant challenges the relevance of thermodynamics to the question and asserts that the excitation and emission processes are energy conserving, noting that emitted frequencies must preserve energy to avoid destructive interference.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the discussed phenomena and thermodynamics, with some asserting a connection while others dispute it. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of energy conservation in the context of excited state emissions.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention concepts such as temperature and pressure broadening, energy-time uncertainty, and scattering processes, but these ideas are not fully explored or agreed upon, leaving some assumptions and definitions unclear.

Gruxg
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I would appreciate very much if you could help me with a puzzling question that seems a paradox to me. Every excited state of an atom (every line of the characteristic spectrum) has a “width”: the higher the width, the shorter the lifetime of the state, and when the atom de-excitates we get radiation with a range of frequencies, not with a single well-defined one.

Well, let's suppose we excite some type of atoms using monochromatic light with a very well defined frequency (photon energy) that is near the low-energy edge of the line width. I'm not sure of this but I suppose when the atoms de-excitate by spontaneous emission they will produce a line with the characteristic width, regardless the precise frequency used for the excitation. Therefore, sometimes the photon emitted in the de-excitation has more frequency, and hence more energy, than the photon used for the excitation? Where does this energy come from?

I do not want to go off on a tangent discussing about the energy-time uncertainty or technical details about the structure of energy levels in an atom. Just: how can we reconcile this with thermodynamics?
 
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Gruxg said:
Where does this energy come from?
Temperature and pressure broadening.
 
Bystander said:
Temperature and pressure broadening.
Thanks, could you explain it a bit? By temperature do you mean that in the excitation and de-excitation process we would be reducing the kinetic energy of the atoms?
 
Anything in the excited state is able to "borrow" energy from its local environment, other excited moieties.
 
I don't see how your question is related to thermodynamics.
Second, this problem is a scattering process. The setup you have in mind will be exactly energy conserving.
The point is that the excitation and emission can take place at different times and the emitted frequencies will destructively interfere if they don't preserve energy.
 

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