Expansion or compression -- which is more energy efficient?

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  • #31
Chestermiller said:
where A is the area of the piston, and the differential displacement of the piston is ds=dV/A. This is the work that is used in the first law of thermodynamics, and is equal to the decrease in internal energy of the gas (for adiabatic change). It is what you are calling the total "energy consumption."
No. The gas works as it expands and the piston works by pulling atmospheric pressure outwards. The work done by the piston against the atmospheric pressure is positive here while the work done by the gas is negative. It has to be deducted from the work done by the done against the atmospheric pressure.
Chestermiller said:
here is no energy consumption involved in advancing the piston for the case of a massless, frictionless piston. The work done by the gas on one side of the piston is equal in magnitude to the work done on the other side of the piston by the atmosphere and the pulling force
How can you say so? The piston is working against the atmospheric pressure and the gas inside is working on the piston. So get the net energy expenditure, we have to deduct the work done by the gas inside from the work done by the piston by working against atmospheric pressure.
 
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  • #32
T C said:
Like all other cooling cycles, it's closed. It sucks heat from one place and dumps that into atmosphere. And there is no phase change occurring in this process.

The high pressure side of piston will face the atmosphere and there is no poking hole. The enclosed gas will remain inside the cylinder.
So, are these the processes? I really don't like guessing, but....

Gas in the cylinder starts at atmospheric pressure and room temperature.

1. Gas is adiabatically expanded and cooled. That part you at least made clear.
2. Gas absorbs heat from the room, heating it to room temperature, but remaining a lower pressure.
3. Piston compresses the gas, heating it, while heat is transferred outdoors (outdoors and indoors are at same temperature), keeping the gas at room temp (isothermal compression), and ending up at the state it started in.

Is this your cycle?
 
  • #33
T C said:
No. The gas works as it expands and the piston works by pulling atmospheric pressure outwards. The work done by the piston against the atmospheric pressure is positive here while the work done by the gas is negative. It has to be deducted from the work done by the done against the atmospheric pressure.

How can you say so? The piston is working against the atmospheric pressure and the gas inside is working on the piston. So get the net energy expenditure, we have to deduct the work done by the gas inside from the work done by the piston by working against atmospheric pressure.
I totally disagree with your interpretation and stand by what I said previously. You should know that I have a lot of practical experience with thermodynamics (>60 years), so I am very confident in what I am saying.

I can help you work your way through this if you are willing to work with me. If so, I would like you to start out by writing down a Newton's law force balance on the piston that includes ##P_{atm}##, ##P_{gas}##, F (the external pulling force needed to move the piston), and the piston area A.

Thank you.
 
  • #34
russ_watters said:
So, are these the processes? I really don't like guessing, but....

Gas in the cylinder starts at atmospheric pressure and room temperature.

1. Gas is adiabatically expanded and cooled. That part you at least made clear.
2. Gas absorbs heat from the room, heating it to room temperature, but remaining a lower pressure.
3. Piston compresses the gas, heating it, while heat is transferred outdoors (outdoors and indoors are at same temperature), keeping the gas at room temp (isothermal compression), and ending up at the state it started in.

Is this your cycle?
That's it.
 
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  • #35
Chestermiller said:
I totally disagree with your interpretation and stand by what I said previously. You should know that I have a lot of practical experience with thermodynamics (>60 years), so I am very confident in what I am saying.
In the first scenario, I have calculated the net energy consumption by subtracting the work done by the gas from the energy spent by the piston i.e. (4539.38 - 2240.28) J. And now, as per you, it should be (4539.38 + 2240.28) J, right?
 
  • #36
T C said:
In the first scenario, I have calculated the net energy consumptioOn by subtracting the work done by the gas from the energy spent by the piston i.e. (4539.38 - 2240.28) J. And now, as per you, it should be (4539.38 + 2240.28) J, right?
There is no net work done on the piston, and, thus, no net energy "spent by the piston." I show this below.

From Newton's 2nd law of. motion applied to the piston, we have $$P_{gas}A+F-P_{atm}A=0\tag{1}$$The term ##P_{gas}A## represents the forward force of the gas on the inside face of the piston, the term F represents the forward external pulling force (needed to advance the piston) applied on the outside face of the piston, and the term ##P_{atm}A## represents the backward pressure force exerted by the air on the outside face of the piston. Notice that, since we are assuming a massless frictionless piston, the net force on the piston is zero at all times during the process. This means that the net of the forces exerted on the faces of the piston is zero.

Next let's consider the work done on the piston (and the net energy consumed by the piston). If we multiply Eqn. 1 by the differential forward displacement of the piston ds and integrate between the Initial and final states of the system, we obtain: $$\int_{V_i}^{V_f}{P_{gas}dV}+\int{Fds}-P_{atm}(V_f-V_i)=0\tag{2}$$The first term on the left-hand side represents the work done by the gas on the inside face of the piston; the second term represents the work done by the applied external force on the outside face of the piston; and the third term (with minus sign included) represents minus the work done by the atmosphere on the outside face of the piston. Eqn. 2 shows that (1) the net work done on the piston by its surroundings is zero and the net work by the piston on its surroundings is zero. Therefore, with regard to the piston, advancing it consumes no net energy.

Let us rearrange Eqn. 2 to obtain:$$\int_{V_i}^{V_f}{P_{gas}dV}=P_{atm}(V_f-V_i)-\int{Fds}\tag{3}$$The term on the LHS represents the work done by the gas on its surroundings (the inside piston face). The LHS represents the work done by the outside face of the piston on the surroundings of the combined system comprising the gas and the piston. You can see that the work done by the gas on its surrounding is exactly equal to the work done by the combined system of gas and piston on its surroundings.

When applying the first law of thermodynamics to a process, the first step in the analysis must be to define, in a precise manner, the specific system that is being analyzed. In the case of scenario 1, there are two simple choices one can make:

1. The gas alone
2. The combination of the gas and the cylinder

Analyzing the process based on either of these choices gives exactly the same results,

CHOICE 1: System = gas alone

In this case, the first law of thermodynamics gives, $$\Delta U=nC_v(T_f-T_i)=-\int_{V_i}^{V_f}{P_{gas}dV}\tag{4}$$
CHOICE 2: System = gas plus piston

In analyzing this case, it is necessary to assume that the massless frictionless piston is thermally insulated such that the internal energy change of the piston is zero. (This is an implicit assumption in case 1 as well). If we write down the equation for the first law of thermodynamics in this case, we obtain $$\Delta U=nC_v(T_f-T_i)=-P_{atm}(V_f-V_i)+\int{Fds}\tag{5}$$Next, combining this with Eqn. 3, we obtain:$$\Delta U=nC_v(T_f-T_i)=-\int_{V_i}^{V_f}{P_{gas}dV}\tag{6}$$

Note that Eqns. 5 and 6 are, as expected, identical..

We have shown here that, for scenario 1,
  1. No net energy is consumed in advancing the piston from its initial position to its final position (i.e., no net work is done on the piston)
  2. The only energy consumption is the result of expanding the gas. However, even here, no energy is dissipated because the decrease in internal energy of the gas is exactly equal to the work done on the surroundings (the work to push the atmosphere back minus the work expended in using an external tensile force F to pull the piston).
 
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  • #37
russ_watters said:
Gas in the cylinder starts at atmospheric pressure and room temperature.

1. Gas is adiabatically expanded and cooled. That part you at least made clear.
2. Gas absorbs heat from the room, heating it to room temperature, but remaining a lower pressure.
3. Piston compresses the gas, heating it, while heat is transferred outdoors (outdoors and indoors are at same temperature), keeping the gas at room temp (isothermal compression), and ending up at the state it started in.
T C said:
That's it.
The hard part of this cycle is to decompress isobarically as it heats up in (2), and then recompress it as the internal heat is transferred out - somehow, outside the box too - isothermally in process (3).

But the real tricky part is trying to do it fast. Isothermal processes are usually really hard to accomplish quickly. For reference, see the reverse Stirling cycle:
The cycle is reversible, meaning that if supplied with mechanical power, it can function as a heat pump for heating or cooling, and even for cryogenic cooling.
At least one company already makes these Stirling cycle refrigerators. They claim their high initial cost can be recuperated over time.

 
  • #38
jack action said:
The hard part of this cycle is to decompress isobarically as it heats up in (2), and then recompress it as the internal heat is transferred out - somehow, outside the box too - isothermally in process (3).
What is isobaric decompression? As far as I know, decompression means decrease in pressure.
 
  • #39
T C said:
What is isobaric decompression? As far as I know, decompression means decrease in pressure.
It means an increase in volume while keeping the pressure constant. I should of used "isobaric expansion" which is more appropriate.
 
  • #40
jack action said:
It means an increase in volume while keeping the pressure constant. I should of used "isobaric expansion" which is more appropriate.
My aim is to generate cooling. In case of isobaric expansion, the temperature of the fluid must be increased to keep the pressure same while increasing the volume. I have clearly stated at the very beginning that it's adiabatic.
 
  • #41
T C said:
My aim is to generate cooling. In case of isobaric expansion, the temperature of the fluid must be increased to keep the pressure same while increasing the volume. I have clearly stated at the very beginning that it's adiabatic.
"Isobaric" and "adiabatic" don't go together. I recall that you replied, "That's it", to the following:
russ_watters said:
2. Gas absorbs heat from the room, heating it to room temperature, but remaining a lower pressure.
In an isobaric expansion, the heat is transferred from the surroundings to the fluid inside. You cannot go around this. The heat transferred is ##Q = C_p \Delta T##, The change in internal energy is ##\Delta U = C_v \Delta T##, and the work is ##W = R\Delta T##. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobaric_process
 
  • #42
T C said:
In the first scenario, I have calculated the net energy consumption by subtracting the work done by the gas from the energy spent by the piston i.e. (4539.38 - 2240.28) J. And now, as per you, it should be (4539.38 + 2240.28) J, right?
Here are my calculations for scenario 1.

Given:
Initial Temperature = ##T_i=300.2K##
Initial Pressure = ##P_i=101325\ Pa##
Number of moles n =1.0

Calculations:
Initial Volume
$$V_i=\frac{nRT_i}{P_i}=\frac{(1)(8.314)(300.2)}{101325}=0.02463\ m^3$$
Final Volume$$V_f=3V_i=0.0739\ m^3$$
Final Temperature$$T_f=T_i\left(\frac{V_i}{V_f}\right)^{\gamma-1}=193.4\ K$$
Final Pressure$$P_f=P_i\left(\frac{V_i}{V_f}\right)=21764\ Pa$$
Change in internal energy of gas
$$\Delta U=nC_vR\Delta T=(1)(2.5)(8.314)(193.4-300)$$$$=-2216.\ Joules$$
Work done by gas on its surroundings (the trailing face of the piston)$$W_{gas}=\frac{P_iV_i}{\gamma-1}\left[1-\left(\frac{V_i}{V_f}\right)^{\gamma-1}\right]$$$$=\frac{(101325)(0.02463)}{0.4}\left[1-\left(\frac{0.02463}{0.0739}\right)^{0.4}\right]=2219\ Joules$$ Work done by leading face of piston to push back atmosphere $$W_{atm}=P_{atm}(V_f-V_i)$$$$=101325(0.0739-0.02463)=4992\ Joules$$
Work done by supplemental rod welded to leading face of piston to pull the piston forward$$\int{Fds}=W_{atm}-W_{gas}=4992-2219=2,773 \ Joules$$
These results confirm that

1. the decrease in internal energy of the gas is equal to the work done by the gas on its surroundings (i.e., the trailing edge of the piston)

2. The work required to push back the atmosphere at the leading edge of the piston is supplied by the pushing force of the gas at the trailing face of the piston plus the pulling force of the supplemental rod welded to the leading face of the piston. For the particular parameters of this problem, the supplemental rod supplies roughly 56% of the required work while the gas supples roughly 44%.
 

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