Explaining the Lack of a Visible Edge in Shadows of Clouds over the Sea

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phenomenon of shadows cast by clouds over the sea, specifically addressing the lack of a visible edge in these shadows. Participants explore the theoretical implications of light and shadow, considering factors such as the sun's distance and size, the height of clouds, and the nature of light emission.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that based on the sun's radius and distance, a 16-meter edge should be visible around the shadow, yet it is not easily seen.
  • Another participant suggests that the spherical nature of the sun reduces the expected edge size to about 8 meters.
  • A question is posed regarding the brightness levels in the penumbra compared to the umbra and the surrounding bright areas.
  • Participants inquire about the viewing angle and distance from which the shadow is observed, as well as the actual altitude of the clouds.
  • There is a discussion about the uniformity of brightness from the sun's surface and how this affects the perceived thickness of the penumbra.
  • One participant argues that the shorter vertical slices of the sun's disk at the edges contribute less to the shadow effect, potentially making the penumbra appear thinner.
  • Another participant questions the assumption of a totally opaque cloud affecting the shadow's visibility.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the expected characteristics of the shadow and the factors influencing its visibility. There is no consensus on the reasons behind the lack of a visible edge in the shadows of clouds over the sea.

Contextual Notes

Participants rely on assumptions regarding distances and the nature of light emission, which may not be fully resolved in the discussion.

goran d
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I have seen shadows of clouds over the sea. What could be the explanation? Let me explain why there needs to be an explanation:
Radius of sun: ~600000km
Distance to sun: ~150000000km
(assumed) distance to cloud: 2km
This means that there should be a 16 metre edge around the shadow where the shadow goes smoothly from dark to light. But there wasn't such an edge, at least not an easily visible one.
 
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Keep in mind that the sun is a sphere, so you are getting almost no light from the left edge of it or the right. You can probably halve your estimate to 8m because of that.
 
What will be the brightness in the penumbra with respect to the umbra and the bright area outside the penumbra?
 
goran d said:
...at least not an easily visible one.
So what did you see? A sharp shadow boundary edge like from a building? How far away was the shadow, and at what angle where you looking at it? Where the clouds really 2km above, or maybe just 500m?
 
rumborak said:
Keep in mind that the sun is a sphere, so you are getting almost no light from the left edge of it or the right. You can probably halve your estimate to 8m because of that.
This isn't how it works. Every point on the surface emits light in all directions, so the brightness is pretty uniform to the edges. You can see this in eclipse photos.
 
russ_watters said:
This isn't how it works. Every point on the surface emits light in all directions, so the brightness is pretty uniform to the edges. You can see this in eclipse photos.

I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying that the emitted light has some kind of directionality to it (I agree with you, it doesn't), but instead that if you section the "sun disk" into vertical slices, the slices towards the edge of the sun are shorter and thus contribute less to the overall shadow effect. Because of that, the penumbra will *look* thinner.
 
goran d said:
I have seen shadows of clouds over the sea. What could be the explanation? Let me explain why there needs to be an explanation:
Radius of sun: ~600000km
Distance to sun: ~150000000km
(assumed) distance to cloud: 2km
This means that there should be a 16 metre edge around the shadow where the shadow goes smoothly from dark to light. But there wasn't such an edge, at least not an easily visible one.
Are you sure you don't see a transition zone? From what distance are you viewing the shadow?
 
goran d said:
why there needs to be an explanation:
A totally opaque cloud?
 

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