News Exploring Causes for Terrorist Attacks on US

[russ_watters]

Like it, your logic is flawed I said you weren't at war you said you were? Which is it?

You are aware that your previous post is still here for everyone to read, right? Those are not the words you used before.

It was a sneak attack admit it, morally abhorent indsicriminate killing of civillians in a colossal screw up by intelligence agents.

What a wholly rediculous summation/assessment of what happened.

I often find those who perpetrate evil acts willing to go to great lengths to defend them, do you even believe what you said?

On that, I agree.

Using crappy Hitler analogies doesn't fly as cogent argument either, and the Columbine analogy is even weaker? Godwyns law was made for jibes like that, or rather to prevent people from using them in unrealistic examples of similarity.

Godwyn's law is indeed for unrealistic examples of similarity. The similarity here is blatantly obvious: you are highlighting reasonable opinions of a murderer while ignoring the murder in a veiled attempt to blame the murder on the victim. If that is a reasonable thing to do, it should be able to be extended to other people who commit murder.

Apply your standards evenly or change them.

As to the other points I think you've basically warped everything I said so as you didn't respond to those points I can't respond to your responses, sorry.

That's ok, I'm more interested in pointing out such rediculousness and attempts at deception for other people to see than arguing the rediculousness with you anyway. I realize that when these things are pointed out you will be unable to justify the deceptions/contradictions.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Russ you took everything I said and turned it into a personal attack, as if I intimiated you personally felt that way then you twisted everything into some sort of Osamah loving excercise.

Just to clarify my position hopefully so that I don't have it rewritten by any more skilled novelists and libellers.

Does Osamah Bin Laden state that he wants to destroy our way of life? can Islam and western philosophy mix, do you know any people who are Islamic and yet mix comfortably with western values and their own, I do I work with stacks of them every day.

Self explanitory but apparently a platform for you to tell us that in fact Osamah has explicitly stated that he wants to destroy the west.

We all know Osmah Bin laden is a nut and no one agrees with his methodology, at least no one who isn't radicalised, but if you have ever listened to his speeches, in some areas he has a point. Did the US not attack Libya in a time of peace between the countries, causing the deaths of many civillians, from a sneak attack?

Yep the only part of the text you actually responded to without twisting it all to hell. And yes if you attack someone by surprise when your not at war it is a sneak attack. It was a low day for the US and it's one of the fundamental reasons Osamah gives for forming Al Queada.

I distinctly remember Osamah citing this as an act of terror and demanding to know how this is different from using bombs to kill civillians? Whilst I can see that there is a difference of deliberately targetting civillians you can see why he's p'd off, or perhaps you can't, if you think Israels bombing runs are justified you probably wouldn't care about civillians that much. Again this is how these acts are perceived whether this is true or not, and where does this logic lead them? I'll leave it up to your imagination.

Let me reiterate I think the guys a nut and don't condone anything he does ever. And stop accusing everyone else of being moderate towards him or encouraging understanding, no ones said that yet, you seem to be writing this thread as if it's your own personal novel, please stick to commenting on what people say and stop trying to read in all this garbage about what you think they meant, if you don't know what they meant ask, it's considered civilised to request information when your unsure, it's not considered civil to bend other peoples staments to suit your own argument. That's just dishonest

PS: I don't think Osamah is stupid enough to believe he can destroy our way of life, his primary goals are to rid the Middle East of western influence, and frankly although I abhor his methods I don't consider that such a bad thing any more.

He isn't but if you read your text you seem to think it's a viable threat? OK if you like you can respond to what I really meant instead of all the perceived slights and rubbish about Hitler, which yes is still a crap analogy how ever much you want to pad it, I'm afraid. Yes Osamah is like Hitler in that he wanted to er... annex the Reichland and Invade Poland

I'm sorry but your just making it up as you go along, it's very annoying.

 

[devious_]

So... Arabs want deomcracy, but reject it because we want them to be democratic? I'm not saying you're wrong, but isn't that a little rediculous?

They reject the constant American/Western interference, not democracy.

 

[Bystander]

They reject the constant American/Western interference, not democracy.

Nothing is ever their fault, is it. They've been making a mess of the ME for five times longer than the U. S. has been a country. It's their mess --- this endless whining about "Now, look what you did," every time their silly religion and silly "cultural traditions" get them into hot water is getting veerrryyyy ollddd.

 

[Yonoz]

here is a CBC report that not only shows how our influence effects people in the Middle East on a personal level, but also explains why we generally don't hear about such things:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0

FYI the translation in that video does not match the Hebrew captions of the soldiers' words. At other times there are displays of dubious translation work and intonation that conveys a meaning different from the soldiers' words. When the Palestinian talks to the officer, the officer clearly displays urgency and will to help him - the narrator gives the Palestinian's version of the events, implying a deliberate delay.
The report does not show critical arguments. For example, the reason soldiers need to move through walls in refugee camps is because the narrow streets were entirely boobytrapped. In one incident 13 soldiers died when moving in a narrow courtyad. Soldiers with all those weapons and equipment on them typically would not bother breaking down walls with a 5kg hammer just to abuse the inhabitants, just like they don't unnecessarily play around with explosives. The original Channel 2 report showed the briefing, uncovered by the CBC report. I would think the contents of the briefing would be crucial in examining such a case.
The Channel 2 report displayed a terrible tragedy. The CBC reports conveys the deliberate detonation of the door - a very dangerous thing, it is done only by trained engineers - with intention to harm to apartment's dwellers. Had the soldiers wished to simply kill someone, they would not bother coming in the room. This happened during an attempted arrest in one of the most dangerous refugee camps - during almost all of these arrests there is lethal resistance in the form of sniping and close quarters fire by targets that don't really mind dying, and the soldiers have to hold both an unknown inner area and an outer perimeter in the form of narrow zig-zag alleyways. It is a very difficult situation and sometimes bad decisions are made, my friend participated in an arrest where his friend was killed by an unsurprised fugitive right in front of him, there is also a dog unit that typically loses a dog every few arrests due to weapons fire.

The occupation brings much injustice. There are bad Israelis and good Israelis. There are soldiers with disregard for lives, and there are commanders that would rather risk the target's family members more than their soldiers. But it's my opinion that the report is a populist spin of a disturbing report on a tragedy - not a conspiracy. Noone is stupid enough to send a TV crew to the mission and briefings if they thought the arrest will end anywhere near the way it unfolded.
There are other stories such as this, ask yourself why you do not hear about them: including some by http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/pageoneplus/corrections.html" , it seems.

 

[Yonoz]

I suggest you watch the movie http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7332726655958371305" .

 

[Yonoz]

Read about "shura" for example.

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shura" is far from democracy. It was a coup d'etat, the rebels won and awarded themselves the final seal of approval ("kosher"):

None of these caliphs or rulers was chosen by shura; all grasped power by inheritance or by the sword. The Muslim clergy counselled submission to rulers as long as they were Muslims; however, the clergy also stressed the duty of the ruler to rule by shura. They based this recommendation on these two passages from the Qur'an:

* "...So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them [the believers] upon the conduct of affairs." (3:159)

This verse suggests that shura is obligatory. The context of this verse makes a direct reference to those (Muslims) who disobeyed the Muhammad. Therefore it is clear that ordinary, fallible Muslims should be consulted.

* "those who conduct their affairs by counsel [are praised]"(43:38).

This second suggests that shura is praiseworthy but does not indicate whether or not it is mandatory. This verse also does not clarify who should be consulted. Neither of the verses clarify what subjects should be conducted through consultation (all decisions? major decisions? at the discretion of the ruler?). The verses also do not say who is to be followed in the event of a disagreement, the ruler or the shura.

In practice, most Muslim rulers were autocratic, listened only to powerful advisors and clergy, and rejected advice they did not like.

This coup is why you have Shi'a and Sunni today, which would make it a failed democracy if it were one in the first place.

 

[Yonoz]

Oh come on---I think that such things do not convince anyone. I think the world sympathy was originally for Palestinians, but then the Arabs got stupid and resorted to terrorism and so the world is no longer for the Palestinians as much due to the terrorist activities all around the world associated with Islam. I watch the news here. Do not tell me that the news favors them from over there. This is a never ending conflict and there is no end to arguments from both sides. You people have to see that you are the same historically and only religion and a bit of history separates you and come to terms with yourselves. Trying to prove one side right is stupid. You can come up with many arguments--both sides are in the wrong equally by now.

What do you want from me? All I want to do is live where I was born peacefully. I don't care if they establish a state. I don't mind giving them land - sh*t, I got hit by people while maning a Peace Now booth a few weeks ago. But I can't tell you our side, can I? You will never believe that one side - the weaker side, as terrible as it is - is playing you, lunarmansion, like a chess pawn, as leverage for political gains.
For some reason you stick with the underdog, even though it's responsible for much of the violence. Yeah we should negotiate, yeah we should compromise. We tried that, and quite understandably the Israeli public feels the Palestinians cannot be trusted. We feel anger too - but we don't take it out on innocent civilians. They sanctify death, the worst thing you can say about the State of Israel is that it made the mistake of letting people build their homes on land that was not theirs. As unjust as that may be, it does not warrant a fraction of what we have endured. They haggle with people's lives at the PR bazaar, parade bodies and dream up stories while we weep silently at funerals - and tomorrow, while I am at my classmate's funeral, I guarantee you that I and the rest of the participants will seriously, painfuly rethink everything we ever did for peace. Our widows join peace movements, theirs express pride at their suicide bomber sons' victim count. Our children draw peace doves (I think my parents kept mine) while theirs go to youth camps where they learn how to be a good terrorist.

You don't have to buy it, it's just my two cents. And as the movie goes "I ain't selling it" - frankly, I don't think we have to answer to anyone but ourselves. That's because of 2 reasons: 1) we're critical enough of ourselves; 2) no-one's ever done anything unselfish for us sans allowing us to establish our national home - which is IMHO our right. The rest of the world seems to come up with fresh reasons why we're bad, in an endless cycle where hysteria replaces hysteria. By the times the retractions appear and the picture is cleared, the next conflict is initiated - often not by us - providing a buffet of opportunities to bash Israel once again, hysteria returns in a slightly different form. I understand the average Joe settling for the shocking photographs and dramatic video clips, but if you really want to know - here's someone sincere and honest who can show you other sides of this conflict. One of them is the battle for your minds.

 

[Yonoz]

I felt chills down my spine when this report ended: "[MEDIA=youtube[/URL].
Green Helmet is the nickname given to a Hizbullah man who appears often as a rescue worker in news reports.

 

[Yonoz]

I am really sorry Yonoz. I did not mean to take any sides at all-what is going on there is beyond rational to me right now-and it is easy to talk of a conflict from far away, comfortably from here. One of my best friends is caught in Lebanon-she goes there with her children every summer but is in the Christian enclave. I have another friend from your country here who studies Physics and believes that there should be peace with the Arabs and he is a well meaning guy. One can generalize about things but when one deals with individuals it is another story. I am sorry if I upset you-I was stupidly trying to be objective but in an irrational conflict as this one, it think it is best to just shut up.

Please, do not shut up. Ask me, I can present you with my views. Be critical of everything - especially your media.
We have been fighting for our right to live here for nearly 60 years. Every generation promises the next it will know no bloodshed. Every one of us remembers the look in their parents' eyes when they talked, as little boys, of being soldiers. My parents have known war in their time, and now it is time for me and my contemporary compatriots to experience it.
You get a pin for serving during a war - just like in the movies. A commitee selects the design, every colored bar has a meaning, like brown for the Sinai's sand and green for the lush mountains of Lebanon. As the wars progressed, a single narrow red bar became 2, then broader and broader. I'm afraid there's not much room left on the bar. I hope this does not progress to a full scale war, but unless something is done to remove the threat to our civilians it will.
I hope your friend is alright. We try to be careful. The day before yesterday I initiated a request to UNIFIL to report any new refugee camps, so we don't fire at them. I wasn't told to, it's just the way I was brought up.

 

[Mickey]

The constant invasions were what caused the "screeching halt." Most notable are the Mongol invasion and the European Crusades. Even to this day, the Middle East is still being invaded and attacked.

Europe and China were constantly invaded and attacked during their scientific revolutions as well. It was a policy of alienation that stopped it for China. As for Europe, it seemed to have stopped after Archimedes with the introduction of Christianity, continuing later during the Renaissance.

Evo's statement works, I think, if the words "the Islamic faith" are replaced with "militant Islam."

 

[Mickey]

How about the number zero? There are numerous contributions to math alone, as shown by this site.
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/980422/1998042208.html"

The Arabs are credited with "introducing" many oriental inventions to the west, including the number zero and the so-called "arabic" numerals, but those were invented by the Indians.

The irony is that the Arabs probably introduced Europe to the compass, which was invented in China, giving it the technology to visit India and China directly by sea instead of further trading with the ME.

 

[daveb]

Zero was invented by Hindus along with the numerals.

I never said the arabs invented it. But yes, they did preserve it.

You should read your history. Not everyone in the Middle East is Arab.

Again, I never said everyone in the middle east is Arab.

Get yourself a proper history book and not information off the web.

It's a little difficult to provide source quotes from a written text. Therefore, the web will have to suffice. In case you think the web is only full of erroneous sources, here are a lot more sources saying pretty much the same stuff.
http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/HistTopics/Arabic_mathematics.html"
and in case you want it from reputable sources
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/ScienceMath/Math.html"
http://www.math.tamu.edu/~dallen/masters/islamic/arab.pdf"
http://www.maths.uwa.edu.au/~adrian/islam.html" Ok this one actually claims zero was invented by arabs, so I guess there must be some disagreement about this even in universities.

 

[pcorbett]

Optics were thought to be invented in the Middle East...

The term optics is the title subject of a fourth century BCE Euclid treatise.

Algebra.

Diophantus wrote of Arithmetica a millenium before al Muhammad ibn Musa al-Kwarizmi was born.

How about the number zero? There are numerous contributions to math alone, as shown by this site.
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/980422/1998042208.html"

The earliest documented formalization of decimal zero was in Aryabhata in his self-titled treatise Aryabhatiya.

 

[pcorbett]

I never said the arabs invented it. But yes, they did preserve it.

I asked you to "name one such invention." You replied: "How about the number zero?" And come on, the Indians preserved it as well, there are still extant copies of the Sanskrit. Now we're going to credit the Muslim world for merely occupying the geographic space necessary for it to transmit westward?

Ok this one actually claims zero was invented by arabs, so I guess there must be some disagreement about this even in universities.

Uh, how do you figure an off-handed remark in a one sentence by a non-historian amounts to a disagreement in the univerisities? Aryabhata's existence is fact. The existence of his work is fact. The date of his work is fact.

 

[Bystander]

Might have to allow the "lateen sail," or, "lateen rigging" --- haven't tripped over any indications that this was "borrowed" from elsewhere --- probably was, but whatever culture developed it is long gone without a trace.

 

[mbrmbrg]

This whole "name one such invention" is really getting ridiculous. Look, while Europe was sitting around in the dark/middle ages, the Islamic Empire was experiencing a golden age. Astronomy. Philosophy. Medicine. Poetry.
Did you never learn about what happened when the two civilizations met (for lack of a better term) through the crusades? For crying out loud, one of the things the crusaders were so taken by were PILLOWS! Not to mention unspoiled food...
Point being: the heck with what Moslems did/did not invent per se.
It may be over, but they had a golden age. Read up on it, instead of quibbling over zero (although it is one of the greatest inventions of all times [see "Nothing Counts" by Isaac Asimov]).

 

[Pythagorean]

One more time: Is a compromise feasible here?

You guys are all saying the same thing (props to you, though, for having the courage to explicitly state that the point would be to find a compromse rather than just backhanding it) but ignoring the fact that Bin Laden does not want and will not accept a compromise. All this crap about understanding his position and seeing if he has a point is just mental masturbation. It is utterly useless/pointless.

well, not a particularly 'even' and 'fair' compromise. As I said in my previous post, I don't think it's an alternative to defeating him somehow in warfare, I think warfare is an important part of 'influencing' a compromise.

 

[Bystander]

"Compromise" with bin Laden is like "compromise" with Charles Manson --- not particularly useful.

 

[pcorbett]

This whole "name one such invention" is really getting ridiculous. Look, while Europe was sitting around in the dark/middle ages, the Islamic Empire was experiencing a golden age. Astronomy. Philosophy. Medicine. Poetry.

So it should be pretty easy to identify some examples of innovation from the Islamic world during that era, wouldn't it?

Did you never learn about what happened when the two civilizations met (for lack of a better term) through the crusades?

Yeah. The Muslims got their asses handed to them the first time around and didn't recover for a century. Apparantly those Western barbarians sitting around in the dark/middle ages apparently had enough presence of mind and capability to strike across thousands of miles of land and ocean and project power into the Near East.

For crying out loud, one of the things the crusaders were so taken by were PILLOWS! Not to mention unspoiled food...

I'd love to see the source on the pillows bit, and food preservation existed in all corners of the globe and long before specific methods pertaining to Oriental spices were transmited westward.

Point being: the heck with what Moslems did/did not invent per se.
It may be over, but they had a golden age.

Sure, if you want to call it that.

Read up on it, instead of quibbling over zero (although it is one of the greatest inventions of all times [see "Nothing Counts" by Isaac Asimov]).

Yes, zero is a great invention. It's also not a Muslim one.

 

[kyleb]

The occupation brings much injustice. There are bad Israelis and good Israelis. There are soldiers with disregard for lives, and there are commanders that would rather risk the target's family members more than their soldiers. But it's my opinion that the report is a populist spin of a disturbing report on a tragedy - not a conspiracy. Noone is stupid enough to send a TV crew to the mission and briefings if they thought the arrest will end anywhere near the way it unfolded.

I appreciate you taking the time to give your critique on the report; but surely you are not contesting its relevance of the report to the topic at hand with your arguments? Of course you don't intentionally send out a TV crew to record such injustices taking place; and as the report enplaned, you don't even let foreign reporters near such situations and systematically shelve what footage is caught by Israeli reporters. Sure that isn't a conspiracy; it is public relations efforts targeted at minimizing the injustices perpetrated by Israel though the occupation of Palestine while maximizing the exposure of the injustices perpetrated on Israel. Our ability to to continue purpotrarting such wrongs on a population is "freedom and way of life" which those who benift most from such action are most determined to protect.

 

[daveb]

This whole "name one such invention" is really getting ridiculous.

I agree. Let's get back to the OP question. If someone wants to debate whether or not the Arab world made such contributions, feel free to start a thread about such.

"Compromise" with bin Laden is like "compromise" with Charles Manson --- not particularly useful.

For some odd reason, I would have to disagree with this. If there were an actual "compromise" I have a feeling the things the US would get would far outweigh the things he would get. I would be more apt to say that trying to compromise is probably pretty useless.

 

[mbrmbrg]

OK, pcorbett. I went back to the beginning of this sub-debate. Mickey said invention. You took issue. I refuse to sift through hundreds of years of history to find an uncontested Islamic invention. HOWEVER. I refuse to accept your "Sure, if you want to call it that" about the whole friggin' concept of an Islamic golden age. Are you really wanting to take on standard history's lable of an era spanning 500 yrs (750-1200 CE)? Or are you just so appallingly ignorant that you don't have a clue what you're taking on?
Sorry, I take back appallingly ignorant. I know almost nothing about the great majority of world history, and I don't think that I'm appallingly ignorant. But I do think that I have the good sense to keep my mouth shut when I know nothing.

 

[pcorbett]

HOWEVER. I refuse to accept your "Sure, if you want to call it that" about the whole friggin' concept of an Islamic golden age. Are you really wanting to take on standard history's lable of an era spanning 500 yrs (750-1200 CE)? Or are you just so appallingly ignorant that you don't have a clue what you're taking on?

"Golden age" is a value-laiden term in the field, and I'm pretty much against the label on general principle. Take it or leave it.

 

[Mickey]

Diophantus wrote of Arithmetica a millenium before al Muhammad ibn Musa al-Kwarizmi was born.

And followers of Pythagorus wrote before Diophantus was born. We systematically call it algebra because of Musa-something-or-other.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

The term optics is the title subject of a fourth century BCE Euclid treatise.

Optics such as spyglasses are Middle Eastern though or more accurately I supose magnifying glasses, two lenses, I supose spyglass means telescope, but I'm unsure of a name for a simple system of two lenses with no adjustment of focal length, again I'm afraid that is an invention, and I've yet to see you contest that, that was nit picking. OK just to be clear I meant optics such as, rather than the way light appears to be bent when it enters water, K.

They did not invent the zero but they did invent the counting system or at least were the first to use it or apply it to accounting, which is where the confusion lies, the crusaders bought this system back with them. IIRC the Indians invented the Zero.

Zero
Zero was invented by the Hindu mathematicians Aryabhata and Varamihara in India around or shortly after the year 520 A.D.

Oh yeah there you go.

Oh and a little casual browsing shows wine was also invented in the middle East, as was I think, bread. So at least the catholics owe a little homage to the region but this is beside the point, anyway AAMOI.

"Golden age" is a value-laiden term in the field, and I'm pretty much against the label on general principle. Take it or leave it.

Golden Age means the period in history where the culture was most widespread, the philosophy was most piquant, the art was most revered and the Arabs were at their height of power and influence. Taking a start at Mohammed's flight we can safely determine that their golden age was between the mentioned years. The English Golden age was probably around 1560-1914. The US are still in there's I'd say from around 1900 to present. It may sound fairly arbitrary but historians do take it fairly seriously.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Indians invented the zero and the so called arabic numerals-Sanskrit professor, Michael Witzel an old German Orientalist at Harvard told me so, and he should know--case closed.

But they didn't use it in any applicable sense, there's where the difference lies, the Arabs took the system and showed how it could be used not in principle but in reality and they perfected it.

And anyway they have invented one thing and that's all he wanted. Just one and it's apt.

And also they came up with philosophical ideas that we're advanced, such as free will and an omnipotent God being mutually exclusive. A fair few weapons too, and warfare tactics, but who cares about war

Using camels against horses is one of them, Horses fear camels it's the smell, they realized it and perfected tactics to drive Knights back. Instead of sending in cavalry.

 

[Mickey]

Using camels against horses is one of them, Horses fear camels it's the smell, they realized it and perfected tactics to drive Knights back. Instead of sending in cavalry.

Horses were very important to any kind of land battle in the second half of the first millennium, after the tribal invasions of Rome from the Steppe, who were practically all horsemen. I'm not familiar with how the Arabs used camels in battle, but, they walked next to their horses until the time was right to make an attack. Then, they rode their horses out of battle, and then returned to the battlefield on other horses, so they wouldn't tire out so quickly in the desert.

The tactic of attacking and retreating over and over again on horseback was what wore down large infantries. A few small tribes from the Steppe could disperse and run around the edges of the battlefield on horses all the time, creating chaos, frustration, and terror. Arabs would shoot arrows on horseback, as well as take swipes with swords and maces, so they must have been quick to learn from the Steppe.