Fear of Death: A Philosophical Inquiry into Coping with Uncertainty

[Lifter0569]

First, there are no religion specifics here anywhere. It is simply a question by philosophical reasoning.

To me and many others, this seems the most important question that one can make a decision on, in duration of their life. And I have not seen this type of question in here yet. And I would like to ask, do you fear death? If you do, why? Because of uncertainty? Well let me ask you this.

While assuming (using logically reasoning) that there are two possible paths after death, one being that you cease to exist, the other being able to think without being "alive"...

Hypothetically, someone does not believe in a creator. He believes he will cease to exist and not be able to think any longer once his body disintegrates from functioning. Logically, he should not fear death, and any entity with this given fate should not fear death.

The other path, being that you think outside of the universe. There is another "fork" in the road (assuming many religions are correct). A path of great happiness, etc. Or a place to feel only pain and separation from our creator.

So, what have you done to cope with the inherent uncertainty with your inevitable death? What kind of philosophical thought process have you done to make that decision.

This topic seems most relevant.

 

[Johann]

To me and many others, this seems the most important question that one can make a decision on, in duration of their life.

I would even go further than that. I believe most of our behaviour is driven by our attitude towards death. Which only seems logical, since death is the only certainty we have.

And I have not seen this type of question in here yet.

Through most of human history, death was seen as a natural part of life. In our modern "scientific" age, death is an embarassing reminder that progress doesn't mean much, so people avoid the subject like the plague.

And I would like to ask, do you fear death?

I was once on an airplane and something happened which made everyone aboard think we were about to crash. It was the most dramatic moment in my life. During the episode I only had two thoughts: "so this is how my life will end, that's interesting" and "I feel so sorry for my wife, she's going to become a widow at such a young age". Never for a moment I felt afraid of what would happen to me.

It seems almost everyone who comes close to death realizes there's nothing to fear. I think the so-called fear of death is actually the fear of something entirely different.

So, what have you done to cope with the inherent uncertainty with your inevitable death?

Well, I have three life-insurance policies; that takes care of all problems that can be taken care of. The other problems are not up to me so I don't have to worry about those either.

Really, the best way I found to cope with uncertainty is to realize I don't have to worry about it. If it is something I can control, it's not uncertain; if I can't control, there's no point worrying about. But I didn't come to understand that easily, it took me years and years.

What kind of philosophical thought process have you done to make that decision.

I don't think it can be called philosophy, I just tried to learn about as many things as I could. And religion was the subject that gave me the best understanding of life, that helped me understand why I don't have to worry about many things. But religion is a difficult subject, you either get it or you don't, it can't be explained. Even though I have in a way or another been religious all my life, it was only in recent years that I really understood what it is about, and why it is the most important subject one has to learn in life.

 

[azneternity]

"To die would be an awfully big adventure" - Peter Pan

 

[Dayle Record]

One fears death as surely as another seeks it. One fearing death is just what one does, others do differently and dance with death on a daily basis. One must keep death entertained, or else death will ask for a more substantive contribution.

 

[bola]

Death is a thing I've thought a lot about in my existential stage..
I'm still kind of afriad of dying, not being dead though.
It doesn't sound too pleasant to lie there feeling your heart stopping, your breath taken away from you and life sucked out of you..
However I hear when you die the brain releases a chemical I can't remember the name of, and it's supposed to be the best high ever.
That could only be a rumor though.

I don't fear being dead, I don't remember much from before i was born, because I wasn't conscious ;P
However, what I fear the most is losing my loved ones, and losing the ability to live.
For example I don't like the idea of never being conscious again, ever in infinity.
Which means I have about 80 years(am I lucky) in the entire existence of the universe, to do my thing.
This is so infinitely small it's not even funny.
So I can do 2 things, 1. contribute to the furthering of society so my name can be remembered through the ages, and 2. live a full life where I accomplish all my goals and do everything I want to do with my life.

That's pretty much all I can do, while I'm here.
On that note, I'll just say I'm so immensely grateful for being born, and being able to be conscious in this universe, and I'd much rather be alive and go through the process of dying, than to never have been alive to begin with, which helps a lot and makes me not so scared of death.

 

[Rade]

Death is a thing I've thought a lot about ...

Death does not exist as a thing. Only life exists as a thing. A thing that does not exist cannot be feared. When you die you have loss of a thing called life, not the gain of a thing called death.

 

[deckart]

Well, we all fear big things that happen to us, in general. Death is a pretty big deal if you ask me. A rather traumatic experience for sure. It's the most important thing that ever happens to someone besides being born. Death should be feared (not afraid of necessarily, just feared) by every living thing.

 

[Rade]

Death should be feared (not afraid of necessarily, just feared) by every living thing.

Perhaps just sematics or I am looking at this topic too abstractly, but "death" should not be feared, but I would agree that "loss of life" may be feared (but may not--some for example hasten the process--called suicide). My point is: "death" does not = "loss of life", they differ fundamentally, the second exists as a thing, the first does not. The initial post asked if I fear death--I do not--and I am not sure if I fear "loss of life", it sort of goes with the saying "s--- happens".

 

[bola]

I disagree Rade.
Death is something, it's the end of life, but it's also a process, namely dying.
SO it doesn't really matter how you put it, because after you lose your life, you are dead.

If you want to go really deep, you can say that death itself is a state.
The lungs shut down, the heart stops and the brain ceases to be conscious, but the body and all its objects is still there, meaning the body has changed from one state to another.
Meaning.. The body was alive and is now dead.

It's pure semantics subjectively if you want to say "loss of life" or "death".

 

[Tzar]

I think the reason one fears death is that it was coded into us biologically. Just like many other natural instincts that a human has, fearing death is just one of them. Making us fear death is natures way of forcing us to avoid it.

 

[zelldot]

heres a question for you all, would you want to live forever? and the fear of death i a big fear of the unknown, just like a job interview for the first time, or going to a new school, the difference is you have some one who has been there and done that telling you it would be ok. You will find the more spiritual a person is, the less they fear death, when the time comes, the time comes... all science needs is an electronic device to speak to the dead and find out!

 

[Per]

I think the reason one fears death is that it was coded into us biologically. Just like many other natural instincts that a human has, fearing death is just one of them. Making us fear death is natures way of forcing us to avoid it.

I'll second that, adding that I do not think the big world religions threatening with Hell for eternety if one does not believe; it certaintly haven't helped.

There are though, people who take death very camly,

see www.exit.ch (You got to read swiss-german to understand it, it is a suicide clinic.)

 

[Agnostic]

Its the fear of the unknown.

Some people reason that they are not scared because everyone must face the same fate. Using this line of reasoning, a person should not be scared of being slowly tortured to death if everyone is tortured to death.

 

[xPAGANx]

I am afraid to die because I truly value living. I believe once I am gone my universe is gone. The universe may still exist, but to me it is gone completely. I will no longer be able to think. I just can't imagine nothing. The closest thing I can relate it to is sleeping, but even that is far from the mark. An eternal sleep of emptiness even my thoughts cannot penetrate.

I believe anyone who values their life should fear death. If you don't fear death you will be careless. Careless like the idiots I see on my way to work every morning driving with little regard for anyone much less themselves. I care about my life and other lives around me. I sit back and think about people, about their daily lives and the people they care about.

I had an interesting scenario happen to me just yesterday. I met a couple friends at Caesarland with their kids. I happened to get there when they were about to leave. We decided to head over to a park. We get outside to my friends car and some guy in a truck parked a little slanted. Mind you this was a very minor inconvenience. My friend just blew up saying stuff like "I should key the shyt outta this car." I had to tell her to calm down and realize what she was saying. She didn't care about that other persons life at all. She blatantly wanted to ruin the guys property over a slight parking mishap that didn't hurt anybody. I had to give her a long speech on over reacting lol.

That kind of mentality really frustrates me. I know a lot of people get bent out of shape over the most ridiculous stuff. Little things make people risk their lives or damage others lives. It is insane, but that is the mentality in this day and age.

 

[Per]

...<snip>...

I had an interesting scenario happen to me just yesterday. I met a couple friends at Caesarland with their kids. I happened to get there when they were about to leave. We decided to head over to a park. We get outside to my friends car and some guy in a truck parked a little slanted. Mind you this was a very minor inconvenience. My friend just blew up saying stuff like "I should key the shyt outta this car." I had to tell her to calm down and realize what she was saying. She didn't care about that other persons life at all. She blatantly wanted to ruin the guys property over a slight parking mishap that didn't hurt anybody. I had to give her a long speech on over reacting lol.

That kind of mentality really frustrates me. I know a lot of people get bent out of shape over the most ridiculous stuff. Little things make people risk their lives or damage others lives. It is insane, but that is the mentality in this day and age.

This kind of mentaility you can find in upper and upper-middle class people. They think they are relative kings, anyone wasting there time or irretates them should have a grusome punishment, just as a king did when met disrespect in the midages.

 

[Agnostic]

I find among the philosophical community it is cool or trendy not to fear death...

 

[Tzar]

I find among the philosophical community it is cool or trendy not to fear death...

I have noticed that too Why do you think this is so?

 

[Agnostic]

I have noticed that too Why do you think this is so?

I am not sure. I am studying philosophy at university and this is the message I get from my fellow students as well as faculty...

 

[xPAGANx]

I think they like to believe they have all the answers.

 

[nameless]

Why does one fear death?
'Fear', of anything, is born of ignorance.

I explain what I mean below. Before going off 'half-cocked' please take the time to read my explanation. Argue that if you choose... This doesn't adequately state my opinion, after further thought. Hence, the 'below'.

 

[xPAGANx]

Why does one fear death?
'Fear', of anything, is born of ignorance.

So you are saying that I fear death because I am ignorant. Unfortunately everyone else is as ignorant as I am.

So why do I fear jumping off The Empire State Building? Is it because I am ignorant or is it because I don't want to die?

Why am I afraid to get bit by a cobra? Is it because I have no education and simply don't know what will happen, or is it because I know the consequences and would rather not experience them?

I think it is a little bold to declare that fear of anything is due to ignorance.

 

[nameless]

So you are saying that I fear death because I am ignorant. Unfortunately everyone else is as ignorant as I am.

I think that it is highly unlikely that 'everyone else' possesses the same quantity and quality of ignorance in exactly the same areas as you do, don't you? It seems that you are making a rather rash statement about 'everyone else', so, I'll let it be. Suffice to say that there are many people who will tell you that they have no 'fear' of 'death'.

So, yes, I'm saying that you fear death because you are ignorant of a particular 'thing'.

Let me digress a moment to forestall a 'defensive reaction' to being called 'ignorant'. Ignorance is just an area where we have little or no 'data'.
I am completely ignorant of the Tamil language.
Ignorance is not 'bad' in and of itself, except where survival is concerned, I guess. ('Willfull ignorance', I think, is called 'stupidity' by some.) So if I say that you are ignorant of something, that is merely an observation, not a value judgement. Being aware of one's ignorance is the beginning of knowledge. Everyone is ignorant of something. As data is gained, ignorance dissipates.

So why do I fear jumping off The Empire State Building? Is it because I am ignorant or is it because I don't want to die?

Could it be your ignorance of 'death' that causes you to fear 'death', therefore deliberately avoiding it? To one extent or another, some spend so much of their lives 'avoiding death' that they have never even 'lived'! Living life and avoiding death are NOT the same. Why not stay off of the roads? Stay out of boats? Never leave the house? Where does it end? Is this rational? Healthy?

Why am I afraid to get bit by a cobra? Is it because I have no education and simply don't know what will happen, or is it because I know the consequences and would rather not experience them?

I think I'm focusing in on the problem here.
If you are living in the 'moment', as opposed to living in a fantasy (imagined) future, full of unknowns (and bogeymen) that might make us dead, if we were 'here/now', we could not fear. Fear is the anticipation of... whatever, death, pain leading to death, heights, spiders, whatever.. There can be no 'fear' if your consciousness, your awareness, is maintained in the only place you can really exist anyway.. 'here/now'.

Perhaps, this is where the 'ignorance' comes from. 'Not knowing' that fear is the result of attachment to a hallucination, the 'future', and being 'ignorant' of the 'solution' of that 'fear'.

Using your cobra example, if one were in the moment, one knows that it is 'counterproductive' to allow oneself to be bitten by anything. One knows that a cobra bite will be damaging to one's health. Avoiding being bitten is as helpful and natural as the knowledge that smoking is detrimental to one's health. We don't have to 'fear' smoking, just don't smoke. So, walking through the jungle, enjoying the cool of the evening, the vibrant verdancy of the living things, when suddenly a cobra 'rears' and prepares to strike. One can turn, jump back, and remove oneself from dangerous range.. One can catch the snake in mid-strike and 'relocate' him. One can then continue on one's way. No attachments to the 'past' or the 'future', and as there is no quick, immediate action required, continue along one's peaceful way, enjoying the cool of the evening... Where would 'fear' enter into this scenario? Where can it?

Live each moment fully, as if it were your last. One moment will be your last. Show's over. Or not. Either way.. where can fear slip into your life now/here? There is no room for it to enter any longer. The enterances (past and future) have been sealed.

This is how to live without fear.

I think it is a little bold to declare that fear of anything is due to ignorance

Thanx for being kind.
But, I'll reword my original 'too bold statement' to say that 'fear' is a result of being attached to fantasies of the 'future' and the 'past', instead of living in the only place that even comes close to a 'reality', Here/Now!

Our ignorance, is that we are not living in the moment. 'Fear' is the result of our 'expectations' not the actuality of the Present.
Am I making sense?

 

[Agnostic]

Why does one fear death?
'Fear', of anything, is born of ignorance.

Thats about the level of thought of a kid in high school who takes a philosophy class for an elective and tries to be a philosopher...without any true philosophical thought.

This goes along with what I said earlier, it is "cool" or trendy not to fear death.

Among what I call the psuedophilosophical groups, it is also "cool" and trendy to oversimplify emotions as being derived from something cut and dry, instead of the complexities that psychology tells us is the reality.

Fear, of anything, is born of anything. It can be born of complete ignorance, willfully or not willfully, or be born of complete knowledge and even partial knowledge.

 

[nameless]

Thats about the level of thought of a kid in high school who takes a philosophy class for an elective and tries to be a philosopher...without any true philosophical thought.

This goes along with what I said earlier, it is "cool" or trendy not to fear death.

Among what I call the psuedophilosophical groups, it is also "cool" and trendy to oversimplify emotions as being derived from something cut and dry, instead of the complexities that psychology tells us is the reality.

Fear, of anything, is born of anything. It can be born of complete ignorance, willfully or not willfully, or be born of complete knowledge and even partial knowledge.

Well, you've sure shown me!
That you are capable of a juvenile dismissal of something you don't agree with (if you are even capable of understanding what I said) and an ad hominem attack.
Well, you sure told me off!

Now, are you capable of contributing anything of value?

Care to back up your problems and dismissal of the truth that I have shared, with actually thought out words and sentences? You can take your complicated psychology and sit on it. If, what I shared about being in the 'Here/Now' doesn't make sense to you, the lack is yours. It is simple, to say. Actually doing it takes a bit of practice.

Any 'thought process' involved besides your unsupported ass-ertions?
Fear born of knowledge? Are you serious? How old are you 19?
If you read my subsequent post above, I explain exactly what I am talking about. If there is something you have trouble understanding, I'd be happy to speak a bit slower for you.

Otherwise, I've already wasted too much time with you.

Fortunately, there are others reading this that arent as 'challenged' as you seem to be.

And perhaps a bit more mature..
Good luck in school..

 

[Agnostic]

Well, you've sure shown me!
That you are capable of a juvenile dismissal of something you don't agree with (if you are even capable of understanding what I said) and an ad hominem attack.
Well, you sure told me off!

Now, are you capable of contributing anything of value?

Care to back up your problems and dismissal of the truth that I have shared, with actually thought out words and sentences? You can take your complicated psychology and sit on it. If, what I shared about being in the 'Here/Now' doesn't make sense to you, the lack is yours. It is simple, to say. Actually doing it takes a bit of practice.

Any 'thought process' involved besides your unsupported ass-ertions?
Fear born of knowledge? Are you serious? How old are you 19?
If you read my subsequent post above, I explain exactly what I am talking about. If there is something you have trouble understanding, I'd be happy to speak a bit slower for you.

Otherwise, I've already wasted too much time with you.

Fortunately, there are others reading this that arent as 'challenged' as you seem to be.

And perhaps a bit more mature..
Good luck in school..

You are correct. I am very capable of dismissing a juvenile/childish notion of human emotion.

Now run along with your adolescent ideas of philosophy.

" 'fear', of anything, is born of ignorance"...What an absurd and ridiculous notion.

 

[nameless]

The arrogant echoes of a braying ass fade into peace as Agnostic can play with the other children in my ignore cage.
Bye bye..
*__-

 

[jimmie]

no fear, but definitely was shaky afterwards for awhile

 

[Human Being]

Waking Life

I am afraid to die because I truly value living. I believe once I am gone my universe is gone. The universe may still exist, but to me it is gone completely. I will no longer be able to think. I just can't imagine nothing. The closest thing I can relate it to is sleeping, but even that is far from the mark. An eternal sleep of emptiness even my thoughts cannot penetrate.

Hello,

You (and anyone else interested) may enjoy watching the movie "Waking Life"...
Among other concepts, it explores the possibility that death is but a long dream.

[2001] Waking Life - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0243017

 

[nameless]

More like 'life' being a long dream...

 

[moving finger]

I find among the philosophical community it is cool or trendy not to fear death...

have you considered the possibility that maybe it is the case that many philosophers genuinely do not fear death, and it has nothing to do with being "cool or trendy"?

unless, that is, you wish to be seen as a cool or trendy philosopher

MF

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

[2001] Waking Life - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0243017

I'm obssessed with this piece of work, I've watched it more than 1000 times.

 

[nameless]

..cool and trendy..

I found that statement so juvenile and ridiculous that it wasn't even worth serious comment.

 

[scix]

People fear that which they do not understand.

Dying, Generally hurts.. who want's to get hurt?

We have invented countless negative, scary after-lives for ourselves, I am sure no one wants to burn in "hell" forever, nor be stuck in limbo, or be reborn countless times without ever retaining a memory of the ordeal.

Basically it comes down to unknowing, we just don't understand what death is, so we will fear it.

I have come close to death a few times, and each time was different. During one of them I had a great epiphany and accepted it, I felt at peace.

The other times, I didn't want to die and struggeled to live.

I guess it all depends.

 

[Psi 5]

The question is slightly ambiguous. Does it mean fear of being dead or fear of dying? They are different. I personally don't fear being dead, dying scares the hell out of me. I don't expect to go like my grandmother in her sleep. I expect that my dying will involve a time of suffering, maybe a long time.

Being dead doesn't scare me much because I don't believe in hell even if there is something after. And if there isn't, then there is only dying.

Death is the one thing that sets us apart from all other life on this planet, we are the only species that knows what personal death is.

One thing about being dead does bother me a little. I'm a contrarian and if there is a choice to go into the light or not, I am contrary enough that I might not choose the light and I wonder lately what that would mean. Sure, we are indoctrinated to believe that the light is good but is it? No one knows for sure and maybe it isn't good, maybe it is something that consumes the soul. Maybe only the few souls that choose not to go into the light survive. Scary stuff, I hope if there is something after I don't have to choose..

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

we are the only species that knows what personal death is.

Do we?

I don't think so, we keep thinking about life, about its meaning, about death and why dying, what's afterwards, death is death, so what's death??

 

[moving finger]

Dying, Generally hurts.. who want's to get hurt?

Agreed, but the question is about fear of death, not fear of getting hurt.

I do not like the prospect of a painful (either physically or mentally painful) terminal illness, and (if in that position) I guess I would want to take something to help end it all quickly. I would then welcome death as a way to relieve/escape the mental/physical pain.

Thus, I do not fear death, but in a sense you might say that I fear pain.

MF

 

[moving finger]

Do we?

I don't think so, we keep thinking about life, about its meaning, about death and why dying, what's afterwards, death is death, so what's death??

imho, Psi should have said "we are the only species which appreciates it's mortality, which knows that death is inevitable"

MF

 

[Psi 5]

...
Death is the one thing that sets us apart from all other life on this planet, we are the only species that knows what personal death is.
...

I stand by that statement as is. The closest thing I have seen in another species of understanding what death is is in Elephants. They will go to the bones of family members and fondle them, they know who the bones belong to. This does not mean they understand personal death or realize that they will inevitably die but they do know that a family member is gone and the bones are what's left.

We fear dying because of the pain that may be involved, because of the unknown consequences, because it signals the end that may not have another beginning.

We fear death because it is the unknown, because it may BE the end.

Would you fear death if you knew for a fact that it would be nothing more than falling asleep and then waking up to a new and better world? No, you would look forward to it, not fear it.

 

[nameless]

Hello all. Please excuse this repeating of my previous post about fearing death, but I really think that the point that I made is extremely relevant and no-one really responded to my point, just about my 'poor' presentation of it.
Now that I have thought a moment, and can perhaps, a bit more intelligently, present this Truth here.
So once again in a nutshell;

There must be thought of death to fear death. One must somehow conceptualize death and then think about it somehow to 'fear' it. One cannot fear something that one cannot conceptualize. Fear of the unknown? One must populate the darkness with phantasms before one can 'rationalize' fear as an appropriate response.

If one were as completely 'in the Moment' as possible in our lives, we would be so Aware of our NOW world, so Conscious, so awed, in such bliss, etc... that we just wouldn't have any time, literally, to 'fantasize' about some potential 'future'. The less of 'you' in the HERE/NOW, the less Aware, the less Conscious, the less spontaneous in interaction, Zen, etc... Then in creep the insane creeps, like fear, hate, love, attachment, delusion, etc... There is literally no room for these mental concepts in the HERE/NOW! HERE is your 'Center', in the HERE/NOW! The further you 'wander' from your 'Center', the more 'eccentric', insane, unhappy, lost, suffering you will become.
Thats why fear sucks! Not death! which is a natural beautiful part of a natural beautiful life...

So, I'll pick 'C', that the 'fear of death' comes from a form of 'mental eccentricity' that can be healed and the 'fear' seems to disappear at the same time.

(for what it's worth...)

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

We fear death because it is the unknown, because it may BE the end.

Exactly it maybe the end, or maybe not! U donno how ur future is going to be later, u donno if ur still going to be able to dream about what u want to be, what u wnana have...Or enjoy the things u used to...

But we actually donno how is it going to be, we only know that there's something called death...It's worth fearing it.

Or at least when u r living, and dreaming of doing some certain things, or reaching a certain goal, u wouldn't want to die before accomplishing ur mission...Before enjoying a certain feeling.

It's very abstract.

 

[moving finger]

We fear death ... because it may BE the end.

In all honesty, I do not fear death.
And I do not understand why anyone should fear death if they truly believe it is the "end". It's just like falling into a dreamless sleep from which you will never awake. What is there to fear about that?

MF

 

[dubmugga]

tis reminds me of when Paul Atreides was getting tested by the bene gesserit reverend mother Gaius helen Mohaim in Dune...

...handle the pain in the box or die a certain death

LITANY AGAINST FEAR

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear - From Frank Herbert's Dune Book Series
© 1965 and 1984 Frank Herbert
Published by Putnam Pub Group

 

[Psi 5]

In all honesty, I do not fear death.
And I do not understand why anyone should fear death if they truly believe it is the "end". It's just like falling into a dreamless sleep from which you will never awake. What is there to fear about that?
MF

Because that is a possible result, I doubt anyone TRULY believes in a particular outcome, deep down everyone has doubts that the end won't be what they like to think they believe it is.

 

[Human Being]

My Take

There are many aspects to the thread author's question.
For those who believe in a paradigm like eternal glorification versus eternal damnation, fear of death would probably depend on what one thought their fate was. Someone who thinks they are "going to Hell" may fear death more because of that viewpoint. Someone who "knows" they are "going to Heaven" might fear death very little, thinking that death is part of the "plan" anyway. Thus, for some people, fear of death is fear of "going to Hell".
The process of death itself can be painless, or extremely painful. Thus, for some, fear of death is fear of extreme pain.
The process of death itself can be instantaneous, or extremely slow. Thus, for some, fear of death is fear of being aware (or being unaware) that one is dying. Going further, some people have selfless reasons for wanting to be alive, such as raising their children. Other people have selfish reasons for wanting to be alive, such as partying more. In these cases, fear of death is fear of not having accomplished enough in life. Being aware of one's own death process can be a peaceful experience, or a period of ultimate regret and sorrow. However, for some people, death occurs without their knowledge - either because it is an instantaneous surprise, or their state of consciousness prevents awareness. Some people want to "see death coming", perhaps so they can experience the whole "life flash before the eyes" thing. Others merely want to avoid being figuratively dead before they are physically dead.

 

[moving finger]

Because that is a possible result, I doubt anyone TRULY believes in a particular outcome, deep down everyone has doubts that the end won't be what they like to think they believe it is.

One could argue that "deep down" we all doubt everything, even that solipsism is false. But one must have the courage of one's convictions - otherwise we would all take Pascal's wager, wouldn't we?
MF

 

[nameless]

One could argue that "deep down" we all doubt everything, even that solipsism is false. But one must have the courage of one's convictions - otherwise we would all take Pascal's wager, wouldn't we?
MF

It is intellectually healthy to doubt everything.
What is "the courage of one's convictions"? To stand by some 'dearly held belief' despite data and experience and evidence that that belief is in error? Is that not what a 'conviction' is? I dunno, it still sounds like the kind of 'convict-ion' that makes 'convicts'! I don't think that there IS another flavor.
And 'convict' or not, no thinking person takes Pascals wager seriously as it is deeply flawed and unworthy of repetition as anything other than an example of fallacious thinking. See http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/nogod/pascal.htm" for a thorough refutation of his fallacious 'wager'.

 

[moving finger]

It is intellectually healthy to doubt everything.

Nevertheless it is not healthy to remain in doubt about everything for the rest of our lives (try doing that without being a hypocrite).

What is "the courage of one's convictions"? To stand by some 'dearly held belief' despite data and experience and evidence that that belief is in error? Is that not what a 'conviction' is?

Not necessarily. Where is the "data and experience" which shows theism is in error?

See http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/nogod/pascal.htm" for a thorough refutation of his fallacious 'wager'.

Thanks for the link to the so-called refutation of Pascal's wager - but I believe I can argue against each one of the points given there.

MF

 

[nameless]

Nevertheless it is not healthy to remain in doubt about everything for the rest of our lives (try doing that without being a hypocrite).

Doubt fertilizes the soil in which understanding and wisdom grow. Surety is intellectual death and stagnation (fossilization). I doubt and am not a hypocrite. Is this a trick question? When doubt leaves, fanaticism, fundamnentalism, zealotry, arrogance and fascism, etc... are the weeds that begin to grow, along with 'beliefs and faith' and 'convictions', instead of critical thought and current hypotheses...

Not necessarily. Where is the "data and experience" which shows theism is in error?

Really?? Please show me any data or evidence for the existence of a god? With no data or evidence, theism IS error, intellectual error anyway. Perhaps not emotional error, but that is something else. As far as I am concerned, accepting a hypothesis, such as a god, with no evidence whatsoever, to the point of 'belief' and 'faith' is emotionally needy pathology, not intelligence. Just my opinion.

Thanks for the link to the so-called refutation of Pascal's wager - but I believe I can argue against each one of the points given there.

You can argue all you like, but the refutations that I have noted are rather definitive as far as I can see. When he says that there is a lack of a third option, how do you argue that? It is a fact. Go "nanananaananananananana I can't hear you" and move on from there? The fallacies are clearly enumerated. But feel free to write your own refutation of the refutation. I'll be happy to read it. Perhaps you'll alter my perspective...

 

[moving finger]

I doubt and am not a hypocrite.

I never said that you were a hypocrite. We all doubt to some extent. What I said was “it is not healthy to remain in doubt about everything for the rest of our lives (try doing that without being a hypocrite)”.
Are you suggesting that you doubt everything and will continue to doubt everything for the rest of your life? I doubt that.

Really?? Please show me any data or evidence for the existence of a god?

With respect, science proceeds on the basis of falsification of hypotheses (read Popper). "the existence of God" is such an hypothesis, however it is NOT a falsifiable hypothesis, which strictly speaking makes it an unscientific hypothesis.
It is well understood in science that no hypothesis can ever be proven, all we can ever hope to do via experimentation is to find data which either support or falsify the hypothesis. To my knowledge, there is no data which falsifies the hypothesis of the existence of God, and (because of the way God is defined) I doubt whether it will ever be possible to falsify this hypothesis – hence it is unfalsifiable – hence unscientific.

With no data or evidence, theism IS error, intellectual error anyway.
…….. accepting a hypothesis, such as a god, with no evidence whatsoever, to the point of 'belief' and 'faith' is emotionally needy pathology, not intelligence.

With respect, you are simply displaying your ignorance of accepted scientific method here (see above). An unfalsifiable hypothesis such as “the existence of God” is unscientific, but you are wrong in your conception that science proceeds only by confirming hypotheses – it does not – it proceeds mainly by falsifying hypotheses.

You can argue all you like, but the refutations that I have noted are rather definitive as far as I can see.

At the top of this post you claim “I doubt”
I’m glad to see that you keep an open mind and that you indeed “doubt” the refutations – or is this hypocrisy?

When he says that there is a lack of a third option, how do you argue that?
It is a fact.

Oh, is it a fact indeed? What happened to your “doubt” all of a sudden?
You and the author of that article are looking at the question from a purely “Christian-centric” view. Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, etc are all earthly religions and in their human-interpreted forms they are indeed incompatible. However it may be the case that the true God transcends all of these homocentric religions, therefore the question boils down simply to a choice : Either the true God exists or does not exist – either believe in the true God or do not. No third way. Simple as that. Why need there be a third option?

Go "nanananaananananananana I can't hear you" and move on from there?

I hope you will understand if I say that this rather infantile comment is not worthy of reply.
With respect
MF

 

[nameless]

I never said that you were a hypocrite. We all doubt to some extent. What I said was “it is not healthy to remain in doubt about everything for the rest of our lives (try doing that without being a hypocrite)”.
Are you suggesting that you doubt everything and will continue to doubt everything for the rest of your life? I doubt that.

Yes. I have learned that the quickest way to be 'shown the light' is to firmly think that you absolutely know something. There is and will always be an element of doubt (for me, of course) about everything. Even this. It is the only wise position to take. It is the only position if I wish to continue to 'evolve' intellectually and in understanding. Otherwise, from surety, we have fanaticism, etc... and the horrors that come with that kind of mindset. You certainly don't need me to enumerate on that?! Yes, and the only 'healthy' position to take is one of doubt of everything.

With respect, science proceeds on the basis of falsification of hypotheses (read Popper). "the existence of God" is such an hypothesis, however it is NOT a falsifiable hypothesis, which strictly speaking makes it an unscientific hypothesis.

With respect, a hypothesis requires supporting evidence to be taken seriously. Large 'claims' require large 'evidence'. The onus is on the one making the outrageous claim to provide outstanding evidence. (read Masterson, Williams, et al.) You can't possibly think that the onus would be on me to 'disprove' a claim of flying elephants? I could certainly examine your 'evidence' critically, though. Got evidence?

It is well understood in science that no hypothesis can ever be proven, all we can ever hope to do via experimentation is to find data which either support or falsify the hypothesis. To my knowledge, there is no data which falsifies the hypothesis of the existence of God, and (because of the way God is defined) I doubt whether it will ever be possible to falsify this hypothesis – hence it is unfalsifiable – hence unscientific.

It is irrelevant to me how 'scientific' the claim is, if no 'evidence' is produced along with the claim, intelligence dictates that it not be taken seriously, unworthy of refutation.

An unfalsifiable hypothesis such as “the existence of God” is unscientific, but you are wrong in your conception that science proceeds only by confirming hypotheses – it does not – it proceeds mainly by falsifying hypotheses.

This is grade school stuff. I'm not, nor have I ever said (produce quote, please) anything like 'science proceeds only by confirming hypotheses'. I'm well aware how science works. I'm really curious where you see me saying anything like this. Can you not refute something real (since you appear to be in a 'refutation' mode), instead of putting incorrect words in my mouth and pointing at 'my' error??

Originally Posted by nameless
You can argue all you like, but the refutations that I have noted are rather definitive as far as I can see.

At the top of this post you claim “I doubt”
I’m glad to see that you keep an open mind and that you indeed “doubt” the refutations – or is this hypocrisy?

Are we playing some kind of word game here? Do you have a point?
I 'doubt' the logical refutation that I have read by perhaps 3.7%. I 'doubt' your ability to refute the refutation by maybe 98.3%. No hypocrisy here.
Is this all going to be personal attack or did you have a valid point you wanted to discuss?

Originally Posted by nameless
When he says that there is a lack of a third option, how do you argue that?
It is a fact.

Oh, is it a fact indeed? What happened to your “doubt” all of a sudden?
You and the author of that article are looking at the question from a purely “Christian-centric” view.

Sorry. Incorrect. I look at NOTHING from a Xtian POV! I am not a Xtian.

However it may be the case that the true God transcends all of these homocentric religions, therefore the question boils down simply to a choice : Either the true God exists or does not exist – either believe in the true God or do not. No third way. Simple as that. Why need there be a third option?

How is it that you go from "it may be the case", to "Either the true God exists or does not exist – either believe in the true God or do not. No third way." in one breath. There 'needs' to be third options because ther ARE further options, and deliberately ignoring them to 'prove' a hypothesis is error, and downright dishonest. Shall I enumerate further options? I think that the author was rather thorough in his multitudinous logical critique of 'Pascal's Wager'. If you have something of substance, evidence of your posited 'god', any real objections to his critique, come ahead and enlighten me. But let's not waste time with word games and 'personalities'?!

Besides, I think that we have wandered rather far afield from the original topic.

I hope you will understand if I say that this rather infantile comment is not worthy of reply.

True. Apologies. I've been dealing with too many kids lately.. I could have worded that better.
<sheepish grin>
The underlying point does, nevertheless, remain.
*__-