Fermi-Walker: Showing Rotation in Plane of 4-Accel & 4-Vel

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of Fermi-Walker transport, specifically addressing whether a Fermi-Walker "rotation" occurs solely within the plane defined by a particle's four-acceleration and four-velocity. Participants explore the implications of this transport in the context of theoretical physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that showing a Fermi-Walker "rotation" happens only in the plane formed by four-acceleration and four-velocity is straightforward due to its definition.
  • Others express uncertainty about deriving this directly from the definition and seek to prove it, suggesting that a vector in the plane should remain within that plane upon rotation.
  • A participant clarifies that the covariant derivative of a vector under Fermi-Walker transport will lie in the plane spanned by the four-acceleration and four-velocity, regardless of the initial position of the vector.
  • Some participants reference external resources for derivations related to Fermi-Walker transport.
  • A later reply mentions difficulty in relating an infinitesimal Lorentz boost in the ##u-a## plane to a specific equation, indicating ongoing challenges in understanding the implications of Fermi-Walker transport.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the ease of demonstrating the plane of rotation for Fermi-Walker transport, with some asserting it is straightforward while others find it challenging. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the clarity of the relationship between vectors and their transport in this context.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the need for further exploration of the definitions and mathematical steps involved in Fermi-Walker transport, indicating potential limitations in the current understanding.

kent davidge
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Is it difficult to show that a Fermi-Walker "rotation" happens only in the plane formed by a particle four-acceleration and four-velocity?
 
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kent davidge said:
Is it difficult to show that a Fermi-Walker "rotation" happens only in the plane formed by a particle four-acceleration and four-velocity?

Since it follows directly from the definition of Fermi-Walker transport, I would say no.
 
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PeterDonis said:
Since it follows directly from the definition of Fermi-Walker transport, I would say no.
I can't see directly from the definition. So I am trying to prove/show it. I guess we need to show that a vector in the plane formed by the four-acceleration and four-velocity, when rotated, still lies in the same plane. Correct?
 
kent davidge said:
I can't see directly from the definition.

The definition is ##D_F X = 0##, where ##D_F## is the Fermi derivative and ##X## is a vector field. (I'm leaving out indexes since just looking schematically at the definition is enough.) The Fermi derivative along a worldline with tangent vector ##U## and proper acceleration ##A = \nabla_U U## is

$$
D_F X = \nabla_U X - \left( X \cdot A \right) U + \left( X \cdot U \right) A
$$

If we set ##D_F X = 0##, we get

$$
\nabla_U X = \left( X \cdot A \right) U - \left( X \cdot U \right) A
$$

which just says that the covariant derivative of ##X## along ##U##, which is what you are calling "Fermi-Walker rotation", lies in the plane spanned by ##U## and ##A##.
 
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kent davidge said:
I guess we need to show that a vector in the plane formed by the four-acceleration and four-velocity, when rotated, still lies in the same plane. Correct?

No. You can Fermi-Walker transport any vector you like, even if it doesn't lie in the plane spanned by ##U## and ##A##. But the covariant derivative of that vector, if it's Fermi-Walker transported, will lie in the plane spanned by ##U## and ##A##; i.e., that's the plane it will "rotate" in.
 
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vanhees71 said:
You can find a derivation of Fermi-Walker transport in terms of old-fashioned Ricci calculus here:

https://th.physik.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/pf-faq/srt.pdf
I find it hard to show that an infinitesimal Lorentz boost in the ##u-a## plane gives as a result your equation 1.8.5.
 
This is discussed in the previous section (following Eq. (1.7.7)).
 

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