Does rotation in Gödel spacetime depend on the frame of reference?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the influence of rotation in Gödel spacetime and whether it depends on the frame of reference. Participants explore the implications of Christoffel symbols in different frames, particularly in relation to rotating and non-rotating observers, and the nature of the matter distribution in Gödel's universe.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the Christoffel symbols for a rotating bucket differ from those for a rotating universe, suggesting different influences of rotation in these contexts.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of the frame associated with the rotating universe, with some arguing that it is a rotating frame while others question this interpretation.
  • Participants express uncertainty about whether the dust in Gödel spacetime is rotating in an orbital or spin sense, with differing views on how a non-spinning observer perceives the motion of dust particles.
  • Some assert that worldlines at rest in the chart are geodesics, while others challenge this by suggesting that there may be timelike geodesics with non-zero angular velocity.
  • There is a contention regarding the implications of the Christoffel symbols, particularly whether a non-zero value indicates a spinning coordinate system, with some participants providing counterexamples from other spacetimes.
  • Participants discuss the concept of vorticity and its relation to rotation, with some clarifying that non-zero vorticity indicates orbital rotation rather than spin.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of rotation in Gödel spacetime and the interpretation of Christoffel symbols. The discussion remains unresolved, with ongoing debate about the implications of the findings.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of the nature of geodesics in the context of Gödel spacetime and the definitions of rotation being used. The discussion also highlights the complexity of interpreting the effects of rotation in different frames.

  • #31
Some general random comments at a broad, non-detailed level that I hope may be helpful.

Tensor quantities, like proper acceleration can (I beleive) be regarded as absolute, because tensors are coordinate independent. Note that this implies that 4-velocity, being a tensor quantity, should be regarded as absolute, even though 3-velocities are famously relative. It's possible this point could be argued, I suppose, I do not have a hard reference that defines the English terms "absolute and relative" mathematically. But I believe that this approach makes sense.

Vorticity is another example (besides proper acceleration) of a tensor quantity. As such, it should be regarded as absolute, because of the coordinate independent property of tensors.

However, there is no guarantee that when someone talks about an object "not rotating", that they are talking about the tensor quantity of vorticity. So some work needs to be done to figure out what a person may be talking about when they talk about non-rotating.

To take a specific example, an object in a Kerr spacetime that is fixed relative to the absolute stars, i.e. a telescope pointed at a distant "guide star", will in general have a non-zero vorticity.

The tensor concept of vorticity applies directly to timelike congruences of worldlines. So some general discussion of what a time-like congruence of worldlines means would seem helpful. If one has a physical object (a bucket full of water, for example), the timelike congruence associated with the physical object can be regarded as the set of 4-velocities of all points in the object at every moment in time. This is just a unit vector field (a timelike unit vector field for a timelike congruence) at every event, since the 4-velocity has unit length.

Worldlines enter into this picture as the integral curves of the above vector field. The integral curves are worldlines of "points on the object", and the tangent vectors of these worldline generate the unit timelike vector field that mathematically defines the timelike congruence.

It'd get too far afield to discuss worldines and tangent vectors, apologies if the terms are not familiar.
 
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  • #32
pervect said:
Tensor quantities, like proper acceleration can (I beleive) be regarded as absolute, because tensors are coordinate independent.

Yes.

pervect said:
this implies that 4-velocity, being a tensor quantity, should be regarded as absolute

Yes. A way of describing it that makes the absolute nature more apparent is that it is the tangent vector to a worldline at a particular point. (Proper acceleration is the path curvature of the worldline at a particular point.)

pervect said:
Vorticity is another example (besides proper acceleration) of a tensor quantity.

Yes.

pervect said:
there is no guarantee that when someone talks about an object "not rotating", that they are talking about the tensor quantity of vorticity.

Yes. If one wants to be more precise, one can describe zero vorticity as "not rotating with respect to local gyroscopes".

pervect said:
an object in a Kerr spacetime that is fixed relative to the absolute stars, i.e. a telescope pointed at a distant "guide star", will in general have a non-zero vorticity.

Yes. Note, however, that this comparison requires the spacetime to be asymptotically flat, and Godel spacetime is not. In other words, in Godel spacetime, there is no analogue to "the distant stars" that can be used to define an alternative sense of "not rotating".
 
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