Feynman rule for closed fermion loop in QED

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the Feynman rules for closed fermion loops in Quantum Electrodynamics (QED), particularly focusing on the tracing of loops and the implications of charge flow direction. Participants explore the rules for both closed and open fermionic lines, including the significance of negative signs in closed loops and the handling of polarization spinors.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines the Feynman rule for closed fermionic loops, emphasizing the need to trace the loop and multiply vertices and propagators, while including a negative sign for closed loops.
  • Another participant requests a source for the stated Feynman rule, indicating a need for verification.
  • There is a discussion about the tracing direction for open fermionic lines, with a clarification that external legs require polarization spinors, while closed loops do not.
  • One participant asserts that Feynman diagrams should be read against the direction of the arrows, suggesting a method for visualizing the diagrams effectively.
  • A later reply discusses the reordering of fields in Wick's theorem and its contribution to the negative sign in closed loops, but does not clarify whether this is universally accepted.
  • One participant questions the placement of gamma matrices in relation to the arrows in the diagram, seeking feedback on potential errors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the rules for tracing closed fermionic loops and the implications of charge flow direction. There is no clear consensus on some aspects, particularly regarding the necessity of polarization spinors and the interpretation of the gamma matrices.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific aspects of Feynman rules and Wick's theorem without providing complete definitions or context, which may lead to misunderstandings or assumptions about the underlying principles.

spaghetti3451
Messages
1,311
Reaction score
31
One of the Feynman rules of QED is the following:

For a closed fermionic loop, the Feynman rule is to start at an arbitrary vertex or propagator, follow the line until we get back to the starting point, multiply all the vertices and the propagators in the order of the line, then take the trace of the matrix product. In addition, we include a negative sign for every closed fermionic loop.

For an open fermionic line, we must trace from the head of the line to the tail. In other words, we must start by writing down the polarization spinor for the line with outgoing charge, ..., and finally the polarization spinor for the line with the incoming charge.

Is there also a rule for closed fermionic loop that we must trace the loop in the direction opposite to the direction of the charge flow?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
spaghetti3451 said:
One of the Feynman rules of QED is the following

Can you give the source you are getting this from?
 
spaghetti3451 said:
For an open fermionic line, we must trace from the head of the line to the tail. In other words, we must start by writing down the polarization spinor for the line with outgoing charge, ..., and finally the polarization spinor for the line with the incoming charge.

You write down the spinors because the head and tail are external legs in the diagram.

spaghetti3451 said:
Is there also a rule for closed fermionic loop that we must trace the loop in the direction opposite to the direction of the charge flow?

You don't write down spinors corresponding to external legs for a closed fermion loop, because it has no external legs.
 
spaghetti3451 said:
One of the Feynman rules of QED is the following:

For a closed fermionic loop, the Feynman rule is to start at an arbitrary vertex or propagator, follow the line until we get back to the starting point, multiply all the vertices and the propagators in the order of the line, then take the trace of the matrix product. In addition, we include a negative sign for every closed fermionic loop.

For an open fermionic line, we must trace from the head of the line to the tail. In other words, we must start by writing down the polarization spinor for the line with outgoing charge, ..., and finally the polarization spinor for the line with the incoming charge.

Is there also a rule for closed fermionic loop that we must trace the loop in the direction opposite to the direction of the charge flow?
Yes, you always have to read the Feynman diagrams against the direction of the arrows. That's why it is most convenient to let run time from bottom to top of your page and then read the diagram from top to bottom. The additional sign in the closed loop comes from the fact that you have to reorder the fields to be contracted in Wick's theorem being on the ends of the expression to get a propagtor. Due to the fermion nature of the fields this reordering under the time-ordering symbol just gives an additional factor (-1) as mentioned in the fermion-loop Feynman rule.
 
vanhees71 said:
Yes, you always have to read the Feynman diagrams against the direction of the arrows. That's why it is most convenient to let run time from bottom to top of your page and then read the diagram from top to bottom. The additional sign in the closed loop comes from the fact that you have to reorder the fields to be contracted in Wick's theorem being on the ends of the expression to get a propagtor. Due to the fermion nature of the fields this reordering under the time-ordering symbol just gives an additional factor (-1) as mentioned in the fermion-loop Feynman rule.

Consider the following:

b4c95bcdda.png


Please ignore the fact that there are no polarization spinors and other junk. It's best if you concentrate on the trace.

I've written the gamma matrices in the direction of the arrows. Is this wrong?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
5K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K