1. Not finding help here? Sign up for a free 30min tutor trial with Chegg Tutors
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Find all subgroups of the octic group

  1. Aug 2, 2011 #1
    Here is my work thus far, and I included any pertinent notes.

    http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n149/camarolt4z28/IMG_20110802_182239.jpg?t=1312327545 [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 2, 2011 #2

    micromass

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2016 Award

    Looks good so far, shackleford! :smile:


    I'll also assume that the "octic group" is just the dihedral group of order 8. I'm not familiar with the name octic group...
     
  4. Aug 2, 2011 #3
    It's the operations on the square numbered

    4 3
    1 2.

    I'm missing an element from the subgroup of order 4.
     
  5. Aug 2, 2011 #4

    micromass

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2016 Award

    Indeed, that would be the dihedral group. :smile:

    Well, what happens if you do (1 2 3 4)(1 2 3 4)?? Which familiar element do you get?
     
  6. Aug 2, 2011 #5
    Well, I figured I could simply do another permutation different than alpha and alpha-squared.

    (1,3,2,4)
     
  7. Aug 3, 2011 #6
    (1 2 3 4)(1 2 3 4) = (1,3)(2,4) = α2

    I already have (1,3)(2,4) in the subgroup of order 2.
     
  8. Aug 3, 2011 #7

    micromass

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2016 Award

    Your elements can occur in multiple subgroups. That's not forbidden...
     
  9. Aug 3, 2011 #8
    I understand that, but the order is not four. The order of the permutation is the LCM of the order of the individual cycles.
     
  10. Aug 3, 2011 #9
    Also, the next problem is Find all normal subgroups of the octic group.

    Wouldn't that be all the subgroups since they each have the identity in them? The left and right cosets would be equal since the identity captures all of the elements in the octic group.
     
  11. Aug 3, 2011 #10

    micromass

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2016 Award

    Yes, the order of a2 is 2. But why would that prevent {1,a,a2,a3} to form a subgroup??
     
  12. Aug 3, 2011 #11

    micromass

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2016 Award

    What does having the identity has to do with normality??

    Calculate the left and right cosets of [itex]\beta[/itex] for example. You'll see that the left and right cosets will not be equal...
     
  13. Aug 3, 2011 #12
    Oh, you're right. The order of that element divides 4. In general then, the subgroup is not unique then because I could stick another second-order element in its place.
     
  14. Aug 3, 2011 #13
    Look at my subgroups. Each of the subgroups have the identity.

    Normality is set equality.

    xH = Hx for all x in G.

    H = G1,...,G8 = G.
     
  15. Aug 3, 2011 #14

    micromass

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2016 Award

    No, you couldn't :biggrin:

    Having a in the subgroup will force a2 in the subgroup, by definition.
     
  16. Aug 3, 2011 #15

    micromass

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2016 Award

    Yes, all subgroups of every group will contain the identity. This has nothing to do with normality.
     
  17. Aug 3, 2011 #16
    Oh. The subgroup has to be closed. That's why alpha-squared has to be in there.
     
  18. Aug 3, 2011 #17
    Duh. Sorry. I had a brain fart there. I need to look at the product of each subgroup with each element in G to determine if the subgroup is normal in G.

    I have the handy group table in the back of the book.
     
  19. Aug 3, 2011 #18
    Okay. I found that the only two normal subgroups of the octic group are, according to my notation, G1 = {e} and G2 = {e, alpha2}. G is not normal in G.
     
  20. Aug 3, 2011 #19

    micromass

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2016 Award

    These aren't all the normal subgroups yet, you're missing one. (Hint: subgroups of index 2 are always normal)

    By the way, I'm also not convinced that you actually found all the subgroups either...
     
  21. Aug 3, 2011 #20
    Then I have no idea how to find them all. How do I find all subgroups of the octic group?
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2011
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook




Similar Discussions: Find all subgroups of the octic group
  1. Groups and subgroups (Replies: 4)

  2. Groups and subgroups (Replies: 19)

Loading...