First Stars - How big - Now Black Holes?

AI Thread Summary
First-generation stars formed from denser gas clouds in the early universe, predominantly composed of hydrogen. These stars typically ended their life cycles by collapsing into black holes, with many of these black holes merging to form supermassive black holes in present-day galaxies. The discussion raises questions about the expansion of the universe during these stellar life cycles and the fate of subsequent generations of stars, particularly regarding their black hole remnants. The relationship between these early black holes and dark matter is also explored, questioning whether they could account for a significant fraction of the universe's mass. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the complexity of stellar evolution and the ongoing mysteries surrounding black holes and dark matter.
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  • #52
Well Billy, you ambushed me with a "naive" question, and when I gave you a simplistic idealized answer you jumped ugly on me to demonstrate your "superior knowledge". That's a cheap trick, kinda "junior high" if you get my drift. I was trying to help you, and you bit my hand. Now, you tell Labguy in this thread that you don't even recognize your own words.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=69077

Maybe a quote from your page will help you remember, Mr. William J.Beaty EE. Just curiosity, does the "T" in Billy T stand for "Tesla"?

Billy B said:
I've always had a niggling suspicion that toroidial transformers are far more weird than anyone suspects. If we wind ourselves a toroidial (donut) inductor and plug it into a 120VAC wall plug, the device will draw a current but ideally won't draw any flow of energy. However, if we then wind a big loose 1-turn secondary "coil" around the donut (through its hole) and short out this "coil", a huge amperage appears in the wire, the coil grows red hot, and many hundreds of watts are drawn from the donut inductor and from the wall outlet. Even if the 1-turn secondary is lifted significantly away from the coil, it still heats up.

Why is this weird? After all, it's just the way that normal transformers work. But think for a moment. In donut-inductors, the magnetic field-lines from each turn of wire extend over to the area enclosed by the next turn of wire, and as a result the magnetic field connects in a circle, and no field extends past the surface of the donut. Yet the secondary coil is entirely *outside* the donut, and therefor the magnetic flux never touches it. We can even use a large, narrow toroid (a hoop-like primary coil) and wind a floppy secondary over it so that the turns of the secondary coil remain many inches away from the wires of the primary and many inches away from the magnetic flux it encloses. The question arises: how does the magnetic field inside the donut-inductor create a current in the secondary coil if no magnetic flux comes anywhere near the the secondary coil? Electronics students always ask this question. The answer in the past has always been that it is simply a law of physics and a part of Maxwell's equations.

My suspicion that the above effect might hide profound mysteries is greatly amplified by the fact that mainstream scientists aren't intrigued by this effect. They essentially have unilaterally DECLARED IT TO BE UNINTERESTING. This is a strange position for a scientist to take. If something is strange and not quite explicable, wouldn't it stimulate their curiousity? Instead it does the opposite! I'm very aware that similar situations are very common throughout modern science. It's a sort of hidden sickness that penetrates every facet of science, and twists science into something that is entirely different than what scientists believe it to be.
Please grow up or have a nice day :smile: somewhere else.

BTW, don't bother emailing me. You are blocked. :cry:
 
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  • #53
turbo-1 said:
I'll bet you're popular at parties, Billy...
I am sorry if I offended or embarrassed you. Most people (at least 80%) who know a little about transformers tend to think that the current in the secondary has something to do with “line of flux cutting thru the conductor” etc. but as these lines do not exist, these “explanations” are just “empty words.”

Transformers work almost the same way light propagates. - an AC magnetic field creates an AC electric field, which in turns creates an AC magnetic field. In the transformer case, this second magnetic field opposes the first and makes the primary draw more current to maintain the first magnetic field. In the case of light, it is a little different. The collapsing magnetic field still creates the orthogonal rising electric field but when it collapses, the electric field drives the “displacement current” - a term that Maxwell added to the set of already known equations about electricity and magnetism. (That was his great contribution.) It is called a “current” because it plays the same role as a moving charge - I. E. it can and does make a magnetic field.

IMHO, there are many “empty words” published every month about “heaven” “souls” “angels” “spirits” etc, but I don’t care much about religion and they do make a lot of people “feel good” so generally I say nothing about this. (I am an agnostic, lacking the conviction, or ego, to be an atheist.)

I do however care about physics. When I read “empty words” in this area I tend to speak up. I may be abrasive and surely it was not nice to set a trap for exposing some “empty words” that most people, not just you, believe in and do feel good about. (“flux lines” helping you to “understand” transformers)

Because I may not be as smooth as I could be, I do offend and get reactions, like being called a “crackpot.” None the less, I will continue to question the validity of “empty words.” I am especially bothered when two entirely different sets of “empty words” are offered to “explain” the same physics!

Specifically in the case of small black hole, BH, evaporating (which I believe to be their true behavior):
(1) Some people will explain the mass loss as due to the entropy it has swallowed making the event horizon, EH, so hot that the (essentially) black body radiation from it is peaked in the gamma ray part of the spectrum.
(2) Other people explain the mass loss by the occasional capture of only one member of a virtual particle pair in the intense gravity gradient of a BH which prevents the normal mutual annihilation.

These two different “explanations” conflict with each other, at lease in how the mass/energy is stored in our observable universe (photons or particles?).

Both “explanations” add mass/energy to our observable universe, at some point outside the EH. Both produce a mass loss at the singularity of the BH. Neither “explanation” says anything about how this “action at a distance” is achieved.

In view of these facts, which I think all agree to, is it fair to be derided as a “crackpot” for pointing out the conflict and inadequacy of the “explanations”? Physics, unlike religion, is too important to me not to comment on this.

I have repeatedly stated that I am willing to accept the consequences of the math that shows that small BHs do “evaporate” just as the math of quantum mechanics predicts quantum entanglement. That is, there are things in physics that no human is ever gong to really understand; but I refuse to claim I do, because of two sets of conflicting “explanations.” I prefer to honestly admit that some things in physics are just beyond human understanding. I.e. we will never “feel good” about what the math is telling us.
 
  • #54
turbo-1 said:
Now, you tell Labguy in this thread that you don't even recognize your own words.

As far as the text you reproduced "as mine" in your post 52, please note it is by Billy B and I am Billy T - I do not recoginze it as mine. I will and have admitted to holding views about visual perception in conflict with most cognitive scientists and offering my own theory - this qualifies me as a "crackpot" in this area, but not in physics, where I tow the standard line, and taught it.

I also want to note that the second sentence of that quote in your post 52, which you think is by me, is simply wrong. I would never say something so stupid. I was part of the team that designed magnetic hysteresis damping rods to use the Earth's magnetic field to slowly and passively take energy out of oscillations in satellites (in case more active means failed).

Only 99.99% of "crackpots" are wrong - that 0.01% is where all our progress comes from. I do offer three independant proofs that the standard view of perception is wrong. Recently there is accumulating evidence that in parietal tissue there is predictive activity, just as I predicted more than 10 years ago in a paper I published. This predictive activity is of course still interpreted in terms of the standard paradigm, not in my "shifted paradigm" and even the fact that it is predictive is barely mentioned. See for example:


The Journal of Neuroscience, July 16, 2003, 23(15):6209-6214
Gaze-Centered Updating of Visual Space in Human Parietal Cortex

W. Pieter Medendorp, Herbert C. Goltz, Tutis Vilis, and J. Douglas Crawford

Abstract
Single-unit recordings have identified a region in the posterior parietal cortex (PPC) of the monkey that represents and updates visual space in a gaze-centered frame. Here, using event-related functional magnetic resonance imaging, we identified an analogous bilateral region in the human PPC that shows contralateral topography for memory-guided eye movements and arm movements. Furthermore, when eye movements reversed the remembered horizontal target location relative to the gaze fixation point, this PPC region exchanged activity across the two cortical lobules. This shows that the human PPC dynamically updates the spatial goals for action in a gaze-centered frame.


turbo-1 said:
Well Billy, you ambushed me with a "naive" question, and when I gave you a simplistic idealized answer you jumped ugly on me to demonstrate your "superior knowledge". That's a cheap trick, kinda "junior high" if you get my drift. I was trying to help you, and you bit my hand.
Again let me say I am sorry. (Probably does no good as you have baned me from your listings, but perhaps someone will tell you.) I was not trying to show "superior knowledge" - there are many here that know more than I do. I was only trying to show that "empty words" are often accepted as explanations, even in classical physics. Also trying to show this was my statement that some doctors (MDs) give about how morphine works. One must alway be on guard against "empty words" that sound like they explain something.(I probably offended some doctors also.)
 
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  • #55
I yield, Billy T, and retreat to my initial impression. You are a pottery magician.
 
  • #56
Chronos said:
I yield, Billy T, and retreat to my initial impression. You are a pottery magician.
What the H... is a "pottery magician" - I don't know if I should thank you, object and try to defend, or just ignore. :rolleyes:

More seriously, I am trying, in my unfortunately sometimes offensive way, to help people be more cautious about the words they accept as "explanations." (Morphine does not make you sleepy because it contains a narcoleptic agent. - It works, if i remember correctly, because it has approximately the same molecular shape as the neurotransmitter seritona and thus binds to its natural receptor sites - don't rely on this information. I give it only to show what a real explanation would involve.)

I am truly sorry if I offended anyone by showing (with the toroidal transformer example of a secondary in a region of space where no magnetic field ever exists), that even in "classical physics" four out of five physics students entering more advanced physics classes I once taught thought the secondary current was caused by "magnetic flux lines cutting thru the secondary coil."
 
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