Force on a Cyclist: Net Force Calculation

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of net force acting on a cyclist, specifically addressing the forces involved, including applied force and frictional force. Participants are examining the implications of force as a vector and the relationship between applied force and net force in the context of cycling mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are questioning the treatment of friction as a negative force and its role in the net force calculation. There is also confusion regarding how the net force can exceed the applied force. Some suggest that the problem may involve rolling resistance rather than traditional friction.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with various interpretations being explored. Some participants have offered insights into the nature of forces acting on the cyclist and the potential misinterpretations in the problem statement. There is a recognition of the need for clarity regarding the definitions and assumptions used in the problem.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the problem may have originated from a non-official source, which could explain perceived inconsistencies or errors in the question and provided solution.

DarkEnergy890
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Homework Statement
A cyclist exerts a constant force of 450 N causing the bicycle to accelerate at 4.8 m s-2
until reaches a velocity of 20 m s-1 due west. Given that the combined mass of the
cyclist plus the bicycle is 120 kg, calculate (i) the net force (ii) the frictional force.
Relevant Equations
F=ma
My understanding is that the Net Force = Force Applied + Frictional Force. The net force is F=ma, so net force = 576N. Now 576N=450N + Frictional force, so frictional force has to be 126N.

My confusion is this:
1. Force is a vector, and the frictional force opposes the direction of motion. Therefore shouldn't friction turn out to be a negative?
2. If the applied force is 450N, then how can the net force be 576N, more than the force applied? If anything, I think that friction should cause the net force to be less than the applied force.

Here is the marking scheme (model answer) : https://prnt.sc/tyhQTEm0WKAw

Thanks!
 
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DarkEnergy890 said:
My confusion is this:
1. Force is a vector, and the frictional force opposes the direction of motion. Therefore shouldn't friction turn out to be a negative?
The model answer clearly show the friction acts east, which is a direction. Directions can be north, south, east, west etc. Not just ##\pm##.
DarkEnergy890 said:
2. If the applied force is 450N, then how can the net force be 576N, more than the force applied? If anything, I think that friction should cause the net force to be less than the applied force.
A bicycle has pedals, gears and wheels that allow a force to be magnified, as it were. That's why it's possible to cycle uphill comfortably in low gear.
DarkEnergy890 said:
Here is the marking scheme (model answer) : https://prnt.sc/tyhQTEm0WKAw
That answer looks completely wrong to me. The force of the cyclist on the bicycle produces an equal and opposite force of the bicyle on the cyclist. These are therefore internal forces that cancel out.

The entire accelerating force must come from static friction of the tyres on the ground. Draw a free-body diagram and you'll see that the force from the ground on the bicycle must be ##576 \ N## (in the direction of the acceleration).
 
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PeroK said:
That's why it's possible to cycle uphill comfortably in low gear.
Speak for yourself! :wink:
 
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As @PeroK observes, the question is poorly posed and the given solution is nonsense.
I'll assume this is on the horizontal (which should have been stated).

By "friction" the author appears to mean rolling resistance. Confusing that with friction is a novice error.

Saying that the rider exerts a force of 450N is pretty meaningless. The rider cannot be exerting a net horizontal force on the bike or the two would part company. The vertical force, mg, is irrelevant. If it means the force exerted on one pedal (no cleats, then) we would need to know about the gearing etc.
To make any use of it to solve the questions asked, we have to assume it means that, in the absence of losses, the cyclist would cause there to be a propulsive force of 450N on the bike+rider system. The actual force would come from static friction on the tyres acting forwards.

Finally, there is the sign error involving the "friction". Having written the equation as ##F_{net}=F_{bike}-F_{friction}##, ##F_{friction}## must be being taken as positive to the East. Hence, getting -126N means the force is 126N West, aiding the acceleration!

Where does this sloppy problem come from?
 
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haruspex said:
As @PeroK observes, the question is poorly posed and the given solution is nonsense.
I'll assume this is on the horizontal (which should have been stated).

By "friction" the author appears to mean rolling resistance. Confusing that with friction is a novice error.

Saying that the rider exerts a force of 450N is pretty meaningless. The rider cannot be exerting a net horizontal force on the bike or the two would part company. The vertical force, mg, is irrelevant. If it means the force exerted on one pedal (no cleats, then) we would need to know about the gearing etc.
To make any use of it to solve the questions asked, we have to assume it means that, in the absence of losses, the cyclist would cause there to be a propulsive force of 450N on the bike+rider system. The actual force would come from static friction on the tyres acting forwards.

Finally, there is the sign error involving the "friction". Having written the equation as ##F_{net}=F_{bike}-F_{friction}##, ##F_{friction}## must be being taken as positive to the East. Hence, getting -126N means the force is 126N West, aiding the acceleration!

Where does this sloppy problem come from?
Thanks for the detailed reply! This problem came from a "pre-paper" company - not an official exam, so that's probably why there are so many mistakes in it.
 

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