Free fall question, where has my reasoning gone wrong?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a physics problem involving a bolt dropped from an elevator, specifically focusing on the time it takes for the bolt to hit the ground from a height of 9.0 ft. The problem also includes the context of the elevator's upward acceleration and speed at the moment the bolt is released.

Discussion Character

  • Mixed

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the calculations for the time of flight, with some arriving at different results (0.75 seconds vs. 0.71 seconds) and questioning the source of the discrepancy. There are discussions about the initial conditions of the bolt's motion, including its initial velocity and the effects of the elevator's acceleration.

Discussion Status

The conversation is ongoing, with participants sharing their calculations and questioning assumptions about the problem setup. Some have provided insights into the relationship between the bolt's initial velocity and the elevator's motion, while others express confusion about these concepts. There is no explicit consensus on the interpretation of the problem or the calculations involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the problem is a two-part question, with the second part involving the distance fallen relative to the elevator shaft. There is also mention of potential confusion regarding the initial height and the nature of the bolt's motion as it relates to the elevator's upward acceleration.

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Homework Statement


It's a two part question, but it basically says this:

a bolt drops from an elevator 9.0 ft from the ground, at what time does it hit the ground?


Homework Equations



x = x0 + vx0t + 1/2ax(t^2)


The Attempt at a Solution



since it's a free fall question and we're starting from above ground:

0 = 9.0ft - 16ft/s^2 (t^2)

-9.0/-16 = t^2

t = 0.75 seconds.

But the book says that t = 0.71 seconds..

thanks
 
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DaveC426913 said:
Where does the 16ft/s^2 come from?


gravity is 32 ft/s^2 so 1/2ax(t^2) is -16ft/s^2(t^2)

thanks for replying
 
Your answer looks fine to me.
 
a bolt drops from an elevator 9.0 ft from the ground, at what time does it hit the ground?

so...

1 foot = 0.3048 m

so 9ft = 2.7432 m

(delta) y = volt + 1/2(a)t^2

so 2.7432 = 0 + 1/2(-9.80)t^2

so 2.7432/(1/2*-9.8)=t^2

so .5598367347 = t^2

so t = .7482223832 or .75s
 
Doc Al said:
Your answer looks fine to me.

how come the answer says 0.71 seconds though? the equation sqrt(9/16) is not ambiguous, since they are both perfect squares.. I can't really guess that it was a difference due to rounding can I?

thanks
 
emyt said:
how come the answer says 0.71 seconds though? the equation sqrt(-9/-16) is not ambiguous, since they are both perfect squares.. I can't really guess that it was a difference due to rounding can I?

thanks

my math got me .75s (I stored the answers in my calculator so rounding error wouldn't be a factor)

the book probably rounded each answer or rounded off wrong... your answer is correct
 
emyt said:
gravity is 32 ft/s^2 so 1/2ax(t^2) is -16ft/s^2(t^2)

thanks for replying
Yeah. I realized as soon as I posted, so I deleted it so as not to confuse.
 
bleedblue1234 said:
my math got me .75s (I stored the answers in my calculator so rounding error wouldn't be a factor)

that's what I got as well, you don't need a calculator to see that the sqrt( 9 / 16) is going to be 0.75.. but the problem is that the book says 0.71s, which is strange...
 
What is the other part of this "two part question"? Is it possible that the 9.0 ft initial height was derived and thus possibly incorrect?
 
  • #10
DaveC426913 said:
What is the other part of this two part question? Perhaps that factors in?

this is the full question:

An elevator ascends with an upward acceleration of 4.0ft/s^2. At the instant its upward speed is 8.0ft/s, a loose bolt drops from the ceiling of the elevator 9.0 ft from the floor.

Calculate (a) the time of flight of the bolt from the ceiling to the floor

(b) the distance it has fallen relative to the elevator shaft.

Answer: (a) 0.71 (b) 2.3 ft

I don't see how the other parts can affect the answer.. but there's a large chance that I'm wrong, I'm just learning physics myself through this book

thanks
DaveC426913 said:
What is the other part of this "two part question"? Is it possible that the 9.0 ft initial height was derived and thus possibly incorrect?

no, it is given
 
  • #11
emyt said:
this is the full question:

An elevator ascends with an upward acceleration of 4.0ft/s^2. At the instant its upward speed is 8.0ft/s, a loose bolt drops from the ceiling of the elevator 9.0 ft from the floor.

Calculate (a) the time of flight of the bolt from the ceiling to the floor
That's quite a bit different from the problem that you stated and solved! You can't ignore the acceleration of the elevator.
 
  • #12
Doc Al said:
That's quite a bit different from the problem that you stated and solved! You can't ignore the acceleration of the elevator.

hmm, but that is the acceleration going up isn't it? when it falls, wouldn't the acceleration just be gravity?

thanks
 
  • #13
emyt said:
hmm, but that is the acceleration going up isn't it? when it falls, wouldn't the acceleration just be gravity?

thanks

Yes but it's initial velocity is not zero. And the elevator floor is moving.


This is not a two-part question. This is a one-part question that has several dependent components.
 
  • #14
emyt said:
hmm, but that is the acceleration going up isn't it? when it falls, wouldn't the acceleration just be gravity?
The acceleration of the bolt is just due to gravity. But you are asked for the time until it hits the moving floor, which is accelerating. You need to combine both accelerations. (Write the position of the bolt and the elevator--with respect to the ground--as functions of time. Then solve for the point at which they collide.)
 
  • #15
ohh. I thought that they meant the floor of the elevator SHAFT. thanks.

I thought that a dropped object has an initial velocity of 0? If not, I'm not sure how I would calculate that.

Thanks for the replies
 
  • #16
emyt said:
ohh. I thought that they meant the floor of the elevator SHAFT. thanks.
D'oh! :wink:

I thought that a dropped object has an initial velocity of 0? If not, I'm not sure how I would calculate that.
The dropped object will have the initial speed of whatever it's being dropped from. (In this case from a moving elevator.)
 
  • #17
Doc Al said:
D'oh! :wink:


The dropped object will have the initial speed of whatever it's being dropped from. (In this case from a moving elevator.)

A good way to think about this would be to think about what happens in a car. When you drop something out of the window, it keeps moving with the car's velocity, it doesn't start from rest. ;)
 
  • #18
emyt said:
I thought that a dropped object has an initial velocity of 0? If not, I'm not sure how I would calculate that.
Well your equation contains a variable for initial velocity. It's just not zero.
 
  • #19
Doc Al said:
D'oh! :wink:


The dropped object will have the initial speed of whatever it's being dropped from. (In this case from a moving elevator.)

Hi, but the speed of the elevator is going from the other direction? how does the upward speed transfer to a downward speed?
thanks
 
  • #20
emyt said:
Hi, but the speed of the elevator is going from the other direction? how does the upward speed transfer to a downward speed?
thanks
What do you mean? The initial speed of the bolt when it starts to fall from the elevator is the same as that of the elevator: 8 m/s upward. (After that, gravity exerts its influence, as for any projectile.)
 
  • #21
Doc Al said:
What do you mean? The initial speed of the bolt when it starts to fall from the elevator is the same as that of the elevator: 8 m/s upward. (After that, gravity exerts its influence, as for any projectile.)


I'm not sure I fully understand... the bolt is DROPPED, so its orientation is opposite to the upward speed of the elevator? I would be certain if the elevator and the bolt were going in the same direction...

thanks
 
  • #22
emyt said:
I'm not sure I fully understand... the bolt is DROPPED, so its orientation is opposite to the upward speed of the elevator?
Why opposite? It's dropped--not thrown or pushed.

Think of the example with the car. You're in a car, riding along at constant velocity. You drop something. Does that something start moving in the opposite direction? No, its initial velocity is the same as that of the car.
 
  • #23
Doc Al said:
Why opposite? It's dropped--not thrown or pushed.

Think of the example with the car. You're in a car, riding along at constant velocity. You drop something. Does that something start moving in the opposite direction? No, its initial velocity is the same as that of the car.


but being dropped is going down, so it's still opposite isn't it? since the elevator is going up

I can see your analogy but I'm having trouble accepting it (of course, that is entirely my fault). the claim seems to be "intuitive" but it isn't very intuitive to me..

when a speed is going in one direction, isn't there some kind of force that makes something go in that direction? if you drop something that isn't "going the same way", would it really have the same speed? perhaps I'm thinking of it like something going against the stream or a current?

sorry, but thanks for your patience
 
  • #24
emyt said:
but being dropped is going down, so it's still opposite isn't it? since the elevator is going up

I can see your analogy but I'm having trouble accepting it (of course, that is entirely my fault). the claim seems to be "intuitive" but it isn't very intuitive to me..

when a speed is going in one direction, isn't there some kind of force that makes something go in that direction? if you drop something that isn't "going the same way", would it really have the same speed? perhaps I'm thinking of it like something going against the stream or a current?

sorry, but thanks for your patience

Yes, for as long as the bolt was part of the elevator, it was being accelerated by the same force that was accelerating the rest of the elevator.

When something is dropped, it just means that it is no longer traveling as part of whatever platform it was dropped off of.

The bolt, still connected to the elevator, was accelerated for some time to the velocity of the elevator. [tex]8 \tfrac{m}{s}[/tex]

At that point, it broke off. What force, exactly, changed its velocity from [tex]8 \tfrac{m}{s}[/tex] to [tex]0 \tfrac{m}{s}[/tex]?
That's right, none.

And according to Newton's First Law:
An object in motion tends to stay in motion, and an object at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force.

With no force to "remove" its initial velocity (Since it was traveling along with the elevator), the velocity of the bolt remains the same as it was the instant it detached from the elevator.
Just like how an object you drop out of the window of a moving car, has an initial velocity that's the same as that of the car the moment it was dropped.
 
  • #25
emyt said:
but being dropped is going down, so it's still opposite isn't it? since the elevator is going up
No. Being dropped just means "let go". Usually you drop things from rest, so they start going down immediately. But not necessarily.

Imagine you are shot straight up into the air out of a circus cannon holding a baseball. As you are going up, you let the ball go. (Ignore air resistance.) What happens to the ball?

when a speed is going in one direction, isn't there some kind of force that makes something go in that direction?
No, why do you think that? (Note that force is only needed to change motion, not to maintain motion.)
if you drop something that isn't "going the same way", would it really have the same speed?
How can it not be "going the same way"? You're holding it! Once you let go, of course, other forces take over. But initially it's moving with the same speed and direction as you are. How could it not?
perhaps I'm thinking of it like something going against the stream or a current?
Perhaps. But even then, if you are holding something and let it go it starts out moving at the same speed and direction that you are moving.
 
  • #26
RoyalCat said:
Yes, for as long as the bolt was part of the elevator, it was being accelerated by the same force that was accelerating the rest of the elevator.

When something is dropped, it just means that it is no longer traveling as part of whatever platform it was dropped off of.

The bolt, still connected to the elevator, was accelerated for some time to the velocity of the elevator. [tex]8 \tfrac{m}{s}[/tex]

At that point, it broke off. What force, exactly, changed its velocity from [tex]8 \tfrac{m}{s}[/tex] to [tex]0 \tfrac{m}{s}[/tex]?
That's right, none.

And according to Newton's First Law:
An object in motion tends to stay in motion, and an object at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force.

With no force to "remove" its initial velocity (Since it was traveling along with the elevator), the velocity of the bolt remains the same as it was the instant it detached from the elevator.
Just like how an object you drop out of the window of a moving car, has an initial velocity that's the same as that of the car the moment it was dropped.

Thanks, I'm starting to accept it.
"At that point, it broke off. What force, exactly, changed its velocity from 8 to 0?" Is a very good point.

But aren't things like velocity associated with a direction? so following that thought, if something is let go, it would go in the same direction as the rest of the object.. but then I think about it, since gravity is now asserting itself, it would start going downwards instead of upwards.. so is there a point in time "instantaneously" perhaps? where the bolt is going in the same orientation as the elevator? (or is this what this whole initial velocity thing was all about)

thanks
 
  • #27
emyt said:
Thanks, I'm starting to accept it.
"At that point, it broke off. What force, exactly, changed its velocity from 8 to 0?" Is a very good point.

But aren't things like velocity associated with a direction? so following that thought, if something is let go, it would go in the same direction as the rest of the object.. but then I think about it, since gravity is now asserting itself, it would start going downwards instead of upwards.. so is there a point in time "instantaneously" perhaps? where the bolt is going in the same orientation as the elevator? (or is this what this whole initial velocity thing was all about)

thanks

Gravity is an acceleration, it changes the velocity. As time goes by, gravity makes the velocity of an object be more and more "pointed down," for it to instantly change the direction of a velocity, the acceleration due to gravity would have to be infinite in size.
 
  • #28
RoyalCat said:
Gravity is an acceleration, it changes the velocity. As time goes by, gravity makes the velocity of an object be more and more "pointed down," for it to instantly change the direction of a velocity, the acceleration due to gravity would have to be infinite in size.

okay, I understand it, it makes a lot of sense. thanks everybody

I just experimented for myself just now but raising an object into the air and letting go - it doesn't start going down right away hahah, that's very interesting
 
  • #29
emyt said:
okay, I understand it, it makes a lot of sense. thanks everybody

I just experimented for myself just now but raising an object into the air and letting go - it doesn't start going down right away hahah, that's very interesting

You've only just noticed? :-p

If it did, you wouldn't really be able to throw anything. :p
 
  • #30
RoyalCat said:
You've only just noticed? :-p

If it did, you wouldn't really be able to throw anything. :p

yes, it shows how much I've been paying attention :P

but on a more serious note, I've always understood the concept of throwing something - of course it would have the same initial velocity if it's going in the same direction. however, dropping something while it was previously going up felt different to me

thanks for all the help, I've been enlightened :P
 

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