French Senate Approves a Ban on Burqas

[Gokul43201]

It isn't, I never said it was, but it's the one in question here.

But by implication, from your argument, you would arrive at the same conclusions about banning other practices that arise purely out of religious doctrine. There is nothing in your argument that is specific to this one practice.

 

[JaredJames]

But by implication, from your argument, you would arrive at the same conclusions about banning other practices that arise purely out of religious doctrine. There is nothing in your argument that is specific to this one practice.

Yes, that is what I was implying. But mainly it applies only to things which are potentially oppressive / degrading / harmful to people.

When you said "How is this any different than any other religious doctrine that people follow literally?" I thought you meant I was singling out Islamic beliefs. I was not, I was referring to all of them.

If I misread, I apologise.

 

[humanino]

Playing Devil's Advocate ... with a little effort, one could perhaps argue that women (in the West) wear high heels, skimpy clothes or make-up (or get boob jobs, face-lifts, etc.) because they've been brainwashed all through their lifetime into believing that you need to do these things to feel good about yourself (or make yourself attractive or whatever).

Edit: Seems I'm not alone in this thought either.

No you are not alone in this thought at all.

The women in France who wear full coverage - are they elderly, I wonder?

No, and that is a main reason for the issue. Remember the origin of the law is another law against wearing "hijab", or too much covering of young girls in school. Religious signs in french schools are permitted as long as they are not "ostensible", basically one must be able to hide them, they should not show too obviously. So it is ok to wear a hat, but it is not ok to wear "hijab".

 

[Gokul43201]

Sorry but I'm new into this forum and I don't know how to post a question. Can someone teach me how? Thank you

Click the big "Physics Forum" logo at the top of this page to go to the main page. Find the appropriate forum for your question, and the appropriate sub-forum under it (if needed). When you are in the right location, click the button (near the top-left) that says "New Topic", and post your question there.

Before doing any of this, read the Forum Guidelines: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=414380

 

[Proton Soup]

So a child should be brought up believing Creationism is a fact? That man walked with dinosaurs? And so on with all other claims made.

I have no problem with a person deciding to believe those things, but it must be a choice. You can't expect a child to make a balanced judgement.

If you must teach creationism, it should be taught as a point of view, not as a fact (as many people believe it should be in certain parts of the world). In my school we were taught science and then giving Religious Education where they taught us about the various religions. If you want to then go on and take up one of those religions it was up to you, but they did not at any point tell us these views from religions were fact.
A school isn't there to indoctrinate children, they should teach the facts based on certifiable evidence.

I don't want this a religious debate. Let's please stick to the burqa issue.

fine then, it is a cultural issue.

do you really believe that you were not indoctrinated with any cultural beliefs? and do you really think that adults are somehow incapable of thinking for themselves because of what they were taught as children?

 

[Jack21222]

No you are not alone in this thought at all.

No, and that is a main reason for the issue. Remember the origin of the law is another law against wearing "hijab", or too much covering of young girls in school. Religious signs in french schools are permitted as long as they are not "ostensible", basically one must be able to hide them, they should not show too obviously. So it is ok to wear a hat, but it is not ok to wear "hijab".

A hijab can hardly be considered "too much covering." It's a simple head scarf. How the law made the leap from hijab to burqa is beyond me.

 

[JaredJames]

and do you really think that adults are somehow incapable of thinking for themselves because of what they were taught as children?

Yes I do, look at all the evidence for something such as evolution. And yet you still get people who refuse to believe it and would rather accept that beings just 'appeared' or were created by some all powerful being. And further still, despite no evidence for their claims at all, they will come to places (such as here) and question or even argue against evolution.

I'm not saying adults can't be brainwashed into these beliefs, but at least they are able to make the decision for themselves. Children absorb what they are told, true or not, you drill into a child that the Earth is 6000 years old and maintain that claim through to adult hood and they will believe it and it isn't easy to break that belief, even with evidence, unless the person is willing to learn.

do you really believe that you were not indoctrinated with any cultural beliefs?

I certainly was, everyone is. But I try to take a scientific stance on everything, I expect proof for claims, and based on that proof, I make a judgement. I don't take things blindly. I refuse to accept what people tell me just because they are convincing. If I am shown to be wrong in one of my beliefs, I accept I'm wrong and will amend it to the correct one. That is the difference with religion, people just take it on blind faith without question.

 

[JaredJames]

A hijab can hardly be considered "too much covering." It's a simple head scarf. How the law made the leap from hijab to burqa is beyond me.

A head scarf isn't exactly 'easy to hide' is it.

 

[Proton Soup]

Yes I do, look at all the evidence for something such as evolution. And yet you still get people who refuse to believe it and would rather accept that beings just 'appeared' or were created by some all powerful being. And further still, despite no evidence for their claims at all, they will come to places (such as here) and question or even argue against evolution.

I'm not saying adults can't be brainwashed into these beliefs, but at least they are able to make the decision for themselves. Children absorb what they are told, true or not, you drill into a child that the Earth is 6000 years old and maintain that claim through to adult hood and they will believe it and it isn't easy to break that belief, even with evidence, unless the person is willing to learn.



I certainly was, everyone is. But I try to take a scientific stance on everything, I expect proof for claims, and based on that proof, I make a judgement. I don't take things blindly. I refuse to accept what people tell me just because they are convincing. If I am shown to be wrong in one of my beliefs, I accept I'm wrong and will amend it to the correct one. That is the difference with religion, people just take it on blind faith without question.

well, since you are open to changing your mind, i would suggest to you that the culture you are standing in was built by people who tend to share those beliefs. and even if they are wrong, it is no business of yours. they will change when they are good and ready. geocentrism was once the norm, and now it rarely is. evolution will be too, eventually. it just takes time. but trying to stick your nose as firmly as you'd like between parents and children is a recipe for social disaster.

 

[Evo]

Playing Devil's Advocate ... with a little effort, one could perhaps argue that women (in the West) wear high heels, skimpy clothes or make-up (or get boob jobs, face-lifts, etc.) because they've been brainwashed all through their lifetime into believing that you need to do these things to feel good about yourself (or make yourself attractive or whatever).

Edit: Seems I'm not alone in this thought either.

Exactly. You're reinforcing what I said. These women are taught it is right and good to hide themselves. Do you think they all just came to this decision independently? Do you think that the positive image of women in high heels, boob jobs, etc... are taught or natural?

 

[JaredJames]

I created a thread here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2888440#post2888440 if anyone's interested, it is regarding indoctrination.

I don't like the idea of hijacking this thread with this discussion any further.

 

[Evo]

well, since you are open to changing your mind, i would suggest to you that the culture you are standing in was built by people who tend to share those beliefs. and even if they are wrong, it is no business of yours. they will change when they are good and ready. geocentrism was once the norm, and now it rarely is. evolution will be too, eventually. it just takes time. but trying to stick your nose as firmly as you'd like between parents and children is a recipe for social disaster.

So, you're saying the people of the Mideast are evoluntionary throwbacks? That a culture that kills and maims is ok as long as there are enough others that condone it?

 

[JaredJames]

well, since you are open to changing your mind, i would suggest to you that the culture you are standing in was built by people who tend to share those beliefs.

You obviously haven't visited where I live. People have very strong viewpoints and are extremely reluctant to change. Trying to get people to change where I live is like going to the deep south in the US and attempting to convert people to Judaism or Islam. I constantly hear people misquote and make erroneous statements wrt the sciences and maths, but I've just given up on trying to explain things now, they are too deeply rooted in their beliefs.

and even if they are wrong, it is no business of yours. they will change when they are good and ready

I'm sure they will, as soon as some celebrity appears on the TV with the latest must have accessory or some news report exagerates something to the extreme.

geocentrism was once the norm, and now it rarely is. evolution will be too, eventually. it just takes time. but trying to stick your nose as firmly as you'd like between parents and children is a recipe for social disaster.

I'm saying I disagree with it and find it appalling people do it, but that does not mean I want to try and stop it. I know that would be futile and to quote a friend "p****** into the wind".

I'd like to point you here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=430225 so we don't take over the thread any further.

 

[Proton Soup]

So, you're saying the people of the Mideast are evoluntionary throwbacks? That a culture that kills and maims is ok as long as there are enough others that condone it?

no, I'm not saying that. what i am saying is this: the problem i have with what he proposes is that it is revolutionary. (fairly strange that someone intent on indoctrination of evolution would propose an non-evolutionary means, but anyway...) revolutions of this sort tend to result in extreme violence. the soviets, for one, have already run the experiment. we have the science on that, and i don't wish to repeat it.

and as for the mideast, well, i have hopes that their culture will evolve too. in fact, i think it already has, and will continue to do so. but to be honest, you see the most atrocity in places where we are doing the most meddling.

and indeed, we are a culture that is doing quite a bit of killing and maiming of our own.

 

[Evo]

no, I'm not saying that. what i am saying is this: the problem i have with what he proposes is that it is revolutionary. (fairly strange that someone intent on indoctrination of evolution would propose an non-evolutionary means, but anyway...) revolutions of this sort tend to result in extreme violence. the soviets, for one, have already run the experiment. we have the science on that, and i don't wish to repeat it.

No, accepting the culture to which you have decided to move is not revolutionary.

and as for the mideast, well, i have hopes that their culture will evolve too. in fact, i think it already has, and will continue to do so. but to be honest, you see the most atrocity in places where we are doing the most meddling.

Again, do you understand what the topic is that we are discussing? These are people that have voluntarily moved to another country, yet are refusing to adapt. No one is meddling. Seriously, you need to get a clue about what the topic is before you post.

 

[Proton Soup]

No, accepting the culture to which you have decided to move is not revolutionary.

Again, do you understand what the topic is that we are discussing? These are people that have voluntarily moved to another country, yet are refusing to adapt. No one is meddling. Seriously, you need to get a clue about what the topic is before you post.

it didn't seem to be a problem when they moved there. someone changed their mind after they moved.

i understand the topic perfectly. I'm even sympathetic to the french.

 

[Evo]

it didn't seem to be a problem when they moved there. someone changed their mind after they moved.

I don't know that anyone in France ever accepted anyone there wearing a burqa in their country. I think that after many years and too much uncontrolled immigration that now public opinion is turning negative. This is similar to the influx of Mexicans into the US. The number of people and the bad economic times have brought the immigrants (mostly illegal) to the forefront of people's frustrations.

The burqa is being used, IMO, as a rallying point to gather behind. They can use the fact that it is a symbol of oppression to support whatever motives they might have.

 

[Proton Soup]

I don't know that anyone in France ever accepted anyone there wearing a burqa in their country. I think that after many years and too much uncontrolled immigration that now public opinion is turning negative. This is similar to the influx of Mexicans into the US. The number of people and the bad economic times have brought the immigrants (mostly illegal) to the forefront of people's frustrations.

The burqa is being used, IMO, as a rallying point to gather behind. They can use the fact that it is a symbol of oppression to support whatever motives they might have.

yes, i think there is some truth in this. but i think also there are some differences. I'm not sure the mexicans in the US are pushing so hard on our culture to change to something radically different. mexicans aren't pushing for recognition of sharia law, for instance. and so some of this in france i think is a reactionary cultural push back. and to that extent, i think they are right to stand their ground. it is one thing to be a good host and show hospitality to exiles. it is another thing entirely when they start rearranging the furniture.

 

[JaredJames]

yes, i think there is some truth in this. but i think also there are some differences. I'm not sure the mexicans in the US are pushing so hard on our culture to change to something radically different. mexicans aren't pushing for recognition of sharia law, for instance. and so some of this in france i think is a reactionary cultural push back. and to that extent, i think they are right to stand their ground. it is one thing to be a good host and show hospitality to exiles. it is another thing entirely when they start rearranging the furniture.

Beautifully said, couldn't agree more.

 

[danzig75]

This is disgraceful. I say we should egg the pope.

 

[Evo]

yes, i think there is some truth in this. but i think also there are some differences. I'm not sure the mexicans in the US are pushing so hard on our culture to change to something radically different. mexicans aren't pushing for recognition of sharia law, for instance. and so some of this in france i think is a reactionary cultural push back. and to that extent, i think they are right to stand their ground. it is one thing to be a good host and show hospitality to exiles. it is another thing entirely when they start rearranging the furniture.

Agreed with Jared, beautifully said.

 

[Proton Soup]

i can't believe we actually agree on something!

 

[Evo]

i can't believe we actually agree on something!

I know, it's frightening.

 

[dreiter]

Let me make sure I am hearing this right. Muslims wearing burqas is 'rearranging the furniture' of the French lifestyle?

 

[Evo]

Let me make sure I am hearing this right. Muslims wearing burqas is 'rearranging the furniture' of the French lifestyle?

That's a pretty good analogy to explain the discomfort.

I'm French and all of my family lives in France, and I'd say that's a nice way to put it.

 

[Proton Soup]

Let me make sure I am hearing this right. Muslims wearing burqas is 'rearranging the furniture' of the French lifestyle?

not exactly. in a lot of ways, islam is like christianity. it is both evangelical and attempts to transform the culture of those it finds itself in. and so you find yourself in a clash of cultures. i think it is more than simply a few women wearing burkas. it's not as if the new immigrants are all that accepting of french culture themselves.

 

[nismaratwork]

not exactly. in a lot of ways, islam is like christianity. it is both evangelical and attempts to transform the culture of those it finds itself in. and so you find yourself in a clash of cultures. i think it is more than simply a few women wearing burkas. it's not as if the new immigrants are all that accepting of french culture themselves.

A bit like the welcome I'd give a christian missionary... annoying buggers.

 

[mheslep]

not exactly. in a lot of ways, islam is like christianity. it is both evangelical and attempts to transform the culture of those it finds itself in.

Arg, no. I could see this equivocation wreck between Islam and Christianity coming above, and here it is. Evangelicals are at most a form of Christianity, maybe a sect. Christianity as relayed via the New Testament seeks to transform the individual and his/her relations with others. It does not specify what clothes to wear, it does not demand that one kill non believers, and most importantly it does not demand a religious government (e.g. sharia law) - in fact the gospel parables warn against it.

 

[Jack21222]

So, Christianity us multi-faceted with different sects, but Islam is homogeneous?

That's the impression I get from that post.

 

[Proton Soup]

Arg, no. I could see this equivocation wreck between Islam and Christianity coming above, and here it is. Evangelicals are at most a form of Christianity, maybe a sect. Christianity as relayed via the New Testament seeks to transform the individual and his/her relations with others. It does not specify what clothes to wear, it does not demand that one kill non believers, and most importantly it does not demand a religious government (e.g. sharia law) - in fact the gospel parables warn against it.

nowhere did i say that the cultures are equivalent. if that were the case, there would not be so much strife.

 

[mheslep]

nowhere did i say that the cultures are equivalent. if that were the case, there would not be so much strife.

I did not say you did. I responded to what you did say, which was:

in a lot of ways, islam is like christianity. but ...

Ok, both monotheistic, etc. But this:

it is both evangelical and attempts to transform the culture of those it finds itself in.[...]

Turns things on its head (evangelicalism is a couple hundred years old interpretation (flawed in my view) of Christianity, where as it is fundamental to the Quran and Islam and employed w/ force) and the degree of culture transformation is not comparable.

 

[mheslep]

So, Christianity us multi-faceted with different sects, but Islam is homogeneous?

No.

That's the impression I get from that post.

Perhaps I didn't articulate well.

 

[Proton Soup]

I did not say you did. I responded to what you did say, which was:

Ok, both monotheistic, etc. But this:
Turns things on its head (evangelicalism is a couple hundred years old interpretation (flawed in my view) of Christianity, where as it is fundamental to the Quran and Islam and employed w/ force) and the degree of culture transformation is not comparable.

i wholeheartedly disagree. christianity has been evangelical since inception (regardless of whether you think it is interpreted correctly, the application is what it is), and until recently, also "employed w/ force".

this isn't about which one you prefer.

 

[mheslep]

i wholeheartedly disagree. christianity has been evangelical since inception (regardless of whether you think it is interpreted correctly, the application is what it is), and until recently, also "employed w/ force".

No, you are conflating what some have done in the name of Christianity to gather power with what it is, according to the fundamental teachings of Jesus of Nazereth. Burning witches in 16th century Salem was not fundamental to Christianity. The Crusades were not fundamental to Christianity. The difference here is that sharia law, for instance, is fundamental to Islam, not just a tenet of it.

 

[drizzle]

... It does not specify what clothes to wear,

Where did it specify what to wear? It only tell to wear decent and modest clothing for both men and women.

...it does not demand that one kill non believers

http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm"

I just can't believe people do still argue that.

and most importantly it does not demand a religious government (e.g. sharia law) - in fact the gospel parables warn against it.

As far as I'm aware of, you won't even believe that the word itself "religious" [in Arabic of course, not the translation] isn't seen in the Quran nor the Hadeith! except for one Hadeith I guess, I'll look it up and see.


Edit:
No there's non.
It was one about going to the extreme [aka being religious]:

Three people came to the houses of the wives of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, to ask about how the Prophet worshipped. When they were told, it was as if they thought it was little and said, 'Where are we in relation to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who has been forgiven his past and future wrong actions?'" He said, "One of them said, 'I will pray all of every night.' Another said, 'I will fast all the time and not break the fast.' The other said, "I will withdraw from women and never marry.' The Messenger of Allah came to them and said, 'Are you the ones who said such-and-such? By Allah, I am the one among you with the most fear and awareness of Allah, but I fast and break the fast, I pray and I sleep, and I marry women. Whoever disdains my sunna is not with me.