News French Senate Approves a Ban on Burqas

[nismaratwork]

Considering Sarkozy's statement, that the burqa is "a sign of enslavement and debasement”… Seriously! What did he left for the “prostitution industry”!? [I’d like to know his knowledge/background about the religion/culture involved, or is he relying on gossips and think he’s really aware of it] This statement is clearly veering into religion or culture, either way such a statement declared by a formal person who suppose to represent a country, IMO, is stupid and irresponsible. He should be mastering politics!

Why is it that the number of people who’ve polled not revealed?



Health reasons, heh, guess they should ban high heels!

And butter, pastries, oh... and smoking. I can just see that happening in France any day now, right after we give up guns in the USA and Russia takes it last shot of Vodka.

 

[Evo]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

 

[lisab]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

So the burqa issue may be a proxy for the root problem: an immigration population that isn't assimilating into French culture fast enough.

 

[JaredJames]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

This is exactly what I've been saying from the start of this thread.

I have shown quotes from the quran which say they should cover up. This isn't a pure choice on their part, especially given how literally the book is taken, this would be taught as 'correct' from birth. So ending up believing it should be done and it is a willing choice on their part is going to happen.

Let's be honest, at some point someone said "women should cover up and not show themselves to other men". We know this because it is written in the quran (and in some countries the laws), which means someone has said it (let's ignore whether it was a damn good fiction writer or a god). So this is women being told, you should cover up.

It is an oppressive device, which someone has decided women should wear because they say so (again, leave the 'who said this' out of it for now). I have seen no evidence that at some point in time a woman went "you know what, I think I'll wear a bed sheet today" and somehow started a fashion trend which was then written into their holy book (perhaps some sort of old school fashion advert or catalogue page? ) and has grown to what it is today.

EDIT: lisab, I think there is definitely an edge of what you have said above in this law despite my views above. But then, is it such a bad thing? I don't see a problem with wanting people to integrate into the current population better. Otherwise you face potential segregation of immigrant groups.

 

[Proton Soup]

i think the problem you will run into with the "brainwashed since birth" argument is that you can use it to outlaw any sort of religious (or even cultural) belief.

 

[Gokul43201]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

Playing Devil's Advocate ... with a little effort, one could perhaps argue that women (in the West) wear high heels, skimpy clothes or make-up (or get boob jobs, face-lifts, etc.) because they've been brainwashed all through their lifetime into believing that you need to do these things to feel good about yourself (or make yourself attractive or whatever).

Edit: Seems I'm not alone in this thought either.

 

[drizzle]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

Brainwashed! Now I’m not [and won’t ] take this into a personal level, but what credibility would you give to those who’ve been following ONE KIND of school of thought, if I may say? Maybe if one starts to interact/understand/explore other cultures/religions/whatever, s/he then would learn to respect and accept, and mostly coexist.

 

[JaredJames]

i think the problem you will run into with the "brainwashed since birth" argument is that you can use it to outlaw any sort of religious (or even cultural) belief.

And there's nothing wrong with that. A child should not be subjected to religion until they are old enough to make a decision themselves. I am strongly against parents (or anyone) indoctrinating children into their faiths when they are too young to know any better (extreme example is the Westboro Baptist Church kids protesting with signs they don't understand, some calling soldiers 'fags', a word they could not define to the reporter speaking to them).

Playing Devil's Advocate ... with a little effort, one could perhaps argue that women (in the West) wear high heels, skimpy clothes or make-up (or get boob jobs, face-lifts, etc.) because they've been brainwashed all through their lifetime into believing that you need to do these things to feel good about yourself (or make yourself attractive or whatever).

They certainly are. Everything you have written is true. There are far too many young (5 to 15 year olds) who dress like adults, wearing makeup and I'd go so far as to say conditioned to believe that is how they must dress and behave.

 

[lisab]

This is exactly what I've been saying from the start of this thread.

I have shown quotes from the quran which say they should cover up. This isn't a pure choice on their part, especially given how literally the book is taken, this would be taught as 'correct' from birth. So ending up believing it should be done and it is a willing choice on their part is going to happen.

Let's be honest, at some point someone said "women should cover up and not show themselves to other men". We know this because it is written in the quran (and in some countries the laws), which means someone has said it (let's ignore whether it was a damn good fiction writer or a god). So this is women being told, you should cover up.

It is an oppressive device, which someone has decided women should wear because they say so (again, leave the 'who said this' out of it for now). I have seen no evidence that at some point in time a woman went "you know what, I think I'll wear a bed sheet today" and somehow started a fashion trend which was then written into their holy book (perhaps some sort of old school fashion advert or catalogue page? ) and has grown to what it is today.

EDIT: lisab, I think there is definitely an edge of what you have said above in this law despite my views above. But then, is it such a bad thing? I don't see a problem with wanting people to integrate into the current population better. Otherwise you face potential segregation of immigrant groups.

I don't think it's a bad thing at all, wanting immigrants to integrate quickly. If they aren't, perhaps there are barriers preventing it...that should be investigated. I don't know enough about the nitty-grittty details of French society to know if this is the case there, though.

Here in the Washington State we have a lot of Russian and Ukrainian immigrants, often families with several generations. After just a few years the typical pattern is: the kids are completely Americanized (thanks to public schools), the parents are trying (not always easy to learn English), the grandparents...not at all. These elderly immigrants will never integrate and it's not even an issue.

The women in France who wear full coverage - are they elderly, I wonder?

 

[Proton Soup]

And there's nothing wrong with that. A child should not be subjected to religion until they are old enough to make a decision themselves. I am strongly against parents (or anyone) indoctrinating children into their faiths when they are too young to know any better (extreme example is the Westboro Baptist Church kids protesting with signs they don't understand, some calling soldiers 'fags', a word they could not define to the reporter speaking to them).

everything is wrong with it. when you separate children from the teaching of their parents, you are destroying a people and its culture to replace it with your own indoctrination.

 

[JaredJames]

I don't think it's a bad thing at all, wanting immigrants to integrate quickly. If they aren't, perhaps there are barriers preventing it...that should be investigated. I don't know enough about the nitty-grittty details of French society to know if this is the case there, though.

Neither do I, although I think it's safe to assume there'd be more than just the burqa causing integration problems.

Here in the Washington State we have a lot of Russian and Ukrainian immigrants, often families with several generations. After just a few years the typical pattern is: the kids are completely Americanized (thanks to public schools), the parents are trying (not always easy to learn English), the grandparents...not at all. These elderly immigrants will never integrate and it's not even an issue.

That is true in the UK as well. We have a number of Indian / Pakistani families living in my local area and the pattern is exactly as described. Grandparents don't bother to integrate, parents have learned the language (better than some locals) but hold the culture, if it wasn't for their skin colour (I don't mean that in a racist way) you'd swear they were from British families.

The women in France who wear full coverage - are they elderly, I wonder?

Are they women? (And before anyone comments on that remark, think about it, we don't know who's under there and although I have no doubt that 99.9% of the time it is a woman, you never know... after enough beer anything could happen...especially with my friends )

 

[Gokul43201]

I have shown quotes from the quran which say they should cover up. This isn't a pure choice on their part, especially given how literally the book is taken, this would be taught as 'correct' from birth. So ending up believing it should be done and it is a willing choice on their part is going to happen.

Let's be honest, at some point someone said "women should cover up and not show themselves to other men". We know this because it is written in the quran (and in some countries the laws), which means someone has said it (let's ignore whether it was a damn good fiction writer or a god). So this is women being told, you should cover up.

It is an oppressive device, which someone has decided women should wear because they say so (again, leave the 'who said this' out of it for now). I have seen no evidence that at some point in time a woman went "you know what, I think I'll wear a bed sheet today" and somehow started a fashion trend which was then written into their holy book (perhaps some sort of old school fashion advert or catalogue page? ) and has grown to what it is today.

How is this any different than any other religious doctrine that people follow literally?

 

[JaredJames]

everything is wrong with it. when you separate children from the teaching of their parents, you are destroying a people and its culture to replace it with your own indoctrination.

So a child should be brought up believing Creationism is a fact? That man walked with dinosaurs? And so on with all other claims made.

I have no problem with a person deciding to believe those things, but it must be a choice. You can't expect a child to make a balanced judgement.

If you must teach creationism, it should be taught as a point of view, not as a fact (as many people believe it should be in certain parts of the world). In my school we were taught science and then giving Religious Education where they taught us about the various religions. If you want to then go on and take up one of those religions it was up to you, but they did not at any point tell us these views from religions were fact.
A school isn't there to indoctrinate children, they should teach the facts based on certifiable evidence.

I don't want this a religious debate. Let's please stick to the burqa issue.

 

[JaredJames]

How is this any different than any other religious doctrine that people follow literally?

It isn't, I never said it was, but it's the one in question here.

 

[tpham19]

Sorry but I'm new into this forum and I don't know how to post a question. Can someone teach me how? Thank you

 

[Gokul43201]

It isn't, I never said it was, but it's the one in question here.

But by implication, from your argument, you would arrive at the same conclusions about banning other practices that arise purely out of religious doctrine. There is nothing in your argument that is specific to this one practice.

 

[JaredJames]

But by implication, from your argument, you would arrive at the same conclusions about banning other practices that arise purely out of religious doctrine. There is nothing in your argument that is specific to this one practice.

Yes, that is what I was implying. But mainly it applies only to things which are potentially oppressive / degrading / harmful to people.

When you said "How is this any different than any other religious doctrine that people follow literally?" I thought you meant I was singling out Islamic beliefs. I was not, I was referring to all of them.

If I misread, I apologise.

 

[humanino]

Playing Devil's Advocate ... with a little effort, one could perhaps argue that women (in the West) wear high heels, skimpy clothes or make-up (or get boob jobs, face-lifts, etc.) because they've been brainwashed all through their lifetime into believing that you need to do these things to feel good about yourself (or make yourself attractive or whatever).

Edit: Seems I'm not alone in this thought either.

No you are not alone in this thought at all.

The women in France who wear full coverage - are they elderly, I wonder?

No, and that is a main reason for the issue. Remember the origin of the law is another law against wearing "hijab", or too much covering of young girls in school. Religious signs in french schools are permitted as long as they are not "ostensible", basically one must be able to hide them, they should not show too obviously. So it is ok to wear a hat, but it is not ok to wear "hijab".

 

[Gokul43201]

Sorry but I'm new into this forum and I don't know how to post a question. Can someone teach me how? Thank you

Click the big "Physics Forum" logo at the top of this page to go to the main page. Find the appropriate forum for your question, and the appropriate sub-forum under it (if needed). When you are in the right location, click the button (near the top-left) that says "New Topic", and post your question there.

Before doing any of this, read the Forum Guidelines: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=414380

 

[Proton Soup]

So a child should be brought up believing Creationism is a fact? That man walked with dinosaurs? And so on with all other claims made.

I have no problem with a person deciding to believe those things, but it must be a choice. You can't expect a child to make a balanced judgement.

If you must teach creationism, it should be taught as a point of view, not as a fact (as many people believe it should be in certain parts of the world). In my school we were taught science and then giving Religious Education where they taught us about the various religions. If you want to then go on and take up one of those religions it was up to you, but they did not at any point tell us these views from religions were fact.
A school isn't there to indoctrinate children, they should teach the facts based on certifiable evidence.

I don't want this a religious debate. Let's please stick to the burqa issue.

fine then, it is a cultural issue.

do you really believe that you were not indoctrinated with any cultural beliefs? and do you really think that adults are somehow incapable of thinking for themselves because of what they were taught as children?

 

[Jack21222]

No you are not alone in this thought at all.

No, and that is a main reason for the issue. Remember the origin of the law is another law against wearing "hijab", or too much covering of young girls in school. Religious signs in french schools are permitted as long as they are not "ostensible", basically one must be able to hide them, they should not show too obviously. So it is ok to wear a hat, but it is not ok to wear "hijab".

A hijab can hardly be considered "too much covering." It's a simple head scarf. How the law made the leap from hijab to burqa is beyond me.

 

[JaredJames]

and do you really think that adults are somehow incapable of thinking for themselves because of what they were taught as children?

Yes I do, look at all the evidence for something such as evolution. And yet you still get people who refuse to believe it and would rather accept that beings just 'appeared' or were created by some all powerful being. And further still, despite no evidence for their claims at all, they will come to places (such as here) and question or even argue against evolution.

I'm not saying adults can't be brainwashed into these beliefs, but at least they are able to make the decision for themselves. Children absorb what they are told, true or not, you drill into a child that the Earth is 6000 years old and maintain that claim through to adult hood and they will believe it and it isn't easy to break that belief, even with evidence, unless the person is willing to learn.

do you really believe that you were not indoctrinated with any cultural beliefs?

I certainly was, everyone is. But I try to take a scientific stance on everything, I expect proof for claims, and based on that proof, I make a judgement. I don't take things blindly. I refuse to accept what people tell me just because they are convincing. If I am shown to be wrong in one of my beliefs, I accept I'm wrong and will amend it to the correct one. That is the difference with religion, people just take it on blind faith without question.

 

[JaredJames]

A hijab can hardly be considered "too much covering." It's a simple head scarf. How the law made the leap from hijab to burqa is beyond me.

A head scarf isn't exactly 'easy to hide' is it.

 

[Proton Soup]

Yes I do, look at all the evidence for something such as evolution. And yet you still get people who refuse to believe it and would rather accept that beings just 'appeared' or were created by some all powerful being. And further still, despite no evidence for their claims at all, they will come to places (such as here) and question or even argue against evolution.

I'm not saying adults can't be brainwashed into these beliefs, but at least they are able to make the decision for themselves. Children absorb what they are told, true or not, you drill into a child that the Earth is 6000 years old and maintain that claim through to adult hood and they will believe it and it isn't easy to break that belief, even with evidence, unless the person is willing to learn.



I certainly was, everyone is. But I try to take a scientific stance on everything, I expect proof for claims, and based on that proof, I make a judgement. I don't take things blindly. I refuse to accept what people tell me just because they are convincing. If I am shown to be wrong in one of my beliefs, I accept I'm wrong and will amend it to the correct one. That is the difference with religion, people just take it on blind faith without question.

well, since you are open to changing your mind, i would suggest to you that the culture you are standing in was built by people who tend to share those beliefs. and even if they are wrong, it is no business of yours. they will change when they are good and ready. geocentrism was once the norm, and now it rarely is. evolution will be too, eventually. it just takes time. but trying to stick your nose as firmly as you'd like between parents and children is a recipe for social disaster.

 

[Evo]

Playing Devil's Advocate ... with a little effort, one could perhaps argue that women (in the West) wear high heels, skimpy clothes or make-up (or get boob jobs, face-lifts, etc.) because they've been brainwashed all through their lifetime into believing that you need to do these things to feel good about yourself (or make yourself attractive or whatever).

Edit: Seems I'm not alone in this thought either.

Exactly. You're reinforcing what I said. These women are taught it is right and good to hide themselves. Do you think they all just came to this decision independently? Do you think that the positive image of women in high heels, boob jobs, etc... are taught or natural?

 

[JaredJames]

I created a thread here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2888440#post2888440 if anyone's interested, it is regarding indoctrination.

I don't like the idea of hijacking this thread with this discussion any further.

 

[Evo]

well, since you are open to changing your mind, i would suggest to you that the culture you are standing in was built by people who tend to share those beliefs. and even if they are wrong, it is no business of yours. they will change when they are good and ready. geocentrism was once the norm, and now it rarely is. evolution will be too, eventually. it just takes time. but trying to stick your nose as firmly as you'd like between parents and children is a recipe for social disaster.

So, you're saying the people of the Mideast are evoluntionary throwbacks? That a culture that kills and maims is ok as long as there are enough others that condone it?

 

[JaredJames]

well, since you are open to changing your mind, i would suggest to you that the culture you are standing in was built by people who tend to share those beliefs.

You obviously haven't visited where I live. People have very strong viewpoints and are extremely reluctant to change. Trying to get people to change where I live is like going to the deep south in the US and attempting to convert people to Judaism or Islam. I constantly hear people misquote and make erroneous statements wrt the sciences and maths, but I've just given up on trying to explain things now, they are too deeply rooted in their beliefs.

and even if they are wrong, it is no business of yours. they will change when they are good and ready

I'm sure they will, as soon as some celebrity appears on the TV with the latest must have accessory or some news report exagerates something to the extreme.

geocentrism was once the norm, and now it rarely is. evolution will be too, eventually. it just takes time. but trying to stick your nose as firmly as you'd like between parents and children is a recipe for social disaster.

I'm saying I disagree with it and find it appalling people do it, but that does not mean I want to try and stop it. I know that would be futile and to quote a friend "p****** into the wind".

I'd like to point you here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=430225 so we don't take over the thread any further.

 

[Proton Soup]

So, you're saying the people of the Mideast are evoluntionary throwbacks? That a culture that kills and maims is ok as long as there are enough others that condone it?

no, I'm not saying that. what i am saying is this: the problem i have with what he proposes is that it is revolutionary. (fairly strange that someone intent on indoctrination of evolution would propose an non-evolutionary means, but anyway...) revolutions of this sort tend to result in extreme violence. the soviets, for one, have already run the experiment. we have the science on that, and i don't wish to repeat it.

and as for the mideast, well, i have hopes that their culture will evolve too. in fact, i think it already has, and will continue to do so. but to be honest, you see the most atrocity in places where we are doing the most meddling.

and indeed, we are a culture that is doing quite a bit of killing and maiming of our own.

 

[Evo]

no, I'm not saying that. what i am saying is this: the problem i have with what he proposes is that it is revolutionary. (fairly strange that someone intent on indoctrination of evolution would propose an non-evolutionary means, but anyway...) revolutions of this sort tend to result in extreme violence. the soviets, for one, have already run the experiment. we have the science on that, and i don't wish to repeat it.

No, accepting the culture to which you have decided to move is not revolutionary.

and as for the mideast, well, i have hopes that their culture will evolve too. in fact, i think it already has, and will continue to do so. but to be honest, you see the most atrocity in places where we are doing the most meddling.

Again, do you understand what the topic is that we are discussing? These are people that have voluntarily moved to another country, yet are refusing to adapt. No one is meddling. Seriously, you need to get a clue about what the topic is before you post.