News French Senate Approves a Ban on Burqas

[Dennis_Murphy]

I read your initial quote as "he's wrong, they can and do integrate, he should read about them before making such claims".

If that is not how it was meant then either I'm wrong and apologise or it was poorly worded.

The meaning of the post was simply to start as a basis for the poster to read about Turkey, a Western Democracy that is heavily religious, and about Islamic peoples who went to countries and became citizens so that he may learn, if that was indeed his point. I did not mean to say that he is wrong, simply that he may formulate a different opinion should he read about Turkey. From that point he is free to argue semantics or to conclude anything that he wishes. I did not mean to spark tensions.

 

[nismaratwork]

Back to headgear... are nuns still allowed to wear a habit in France? Just curious...

 

[Gokul43201]

I'm sure they are (and I don't see a double standard in that), but possibly not inside a public school (not sure).

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm sure they are (and I don't see a double standard in that), but possibly not inside a public school (not sure).

This may be a gap in my knowledge; I know that there are number of Catholic schools in France, but I don't know if any receive state funding... or if that makes them subject to state law the way it would in the USA. Do you know by any chance?... I can't seem to find the info online yet. I'm afraid I made an assumption here, so forgive me for asking for assistance in proving or disproving it.

edit: the best I can find is this from wikipedia, which would seem to indicate that state subsidy does not subject a school to state law:

but publicly subsidized, Catholic schools (where the law does not apply, being restricted to the public education system).

 

[JaredJames]

In the UK, if a persons religion says they have to wear a turban, they do not have to wear a crash helmet for motorcycles or on construction sites. (After all, they are known for the impact protection they offer )

That's an example of a law in place to maintain religious freedom, but at the same time having potentially lethal consequences.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Turban,_UK_Legislation_Regarding_its_use_by_Sikhs

The above link is to a sikh wiki page explaining the laws of the UK. I do like the clause:
"Where a turban-wearing Sikh is injured on a construction site liability for injuries is restricted to the injuries that would have been sustained if the Sikh had been wearing a safety helmet."

Wear it at your own peril in other words.

And then whilst aquiring that link I found this gem:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/07/police-sikhs-bulletproof-turbans

The UK seems to be going out of its way to accommodate religious beliefs. I have no problem with these laws on the grounds they have clearly built in clauses which limit liability. I'm not sure whether or not I'd consider the above to be damaging potential integration into society. In my books it isn't such a big issue in comparison to the burqa, where you are effectively cut off from the person due to the garments.

These examples seem to be the complete opposite of what France is doing. France is removing their head gear, we're adding to it.

Personally, I don't think anyone should be exempt from strict dress codes such as those with the police.

 

[mheslep]

If that was his point then I would suggest he read up on Turkey and all the Islamic peoples that moved to the west and became citizens inside those nations.

Turkey makes my point. After WWI Islamic code was not allowed to integrate with or even run Turkish government as it had been Ottoman times; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk" .

 

[humanino]

I'm sure they are (and I don't see a double standard in that), but possibly not inside a public school (not sure).

My understanding is that the french government would not see a double standard : if the question refers to catholic nuns, one should be reminded that catholic male professionals also have distinctive dress codes. Monks or priest wear them. You can not understand the issue if you forget that burqa is only for women.

 

[nismaratwork]

My understanding is that the french government would not see a double standard : if the question refers to catholic nuns, one should be reminded that catholic male professionals also have distinctive dress codes. Monks or priest wear them. You can not understand the issue if you forget that burqa is only for women.

There is a difference between a collar and black cloths and a fairly elaborate bit of headgear in my view. We're not just talking about a little skullcap either, but something that is in fact far more elaborate (in its formal presentation) than a hijab, but less than a burqa. As I understand it, this law unlike the 2004 version, applies specifically to headwear.

 

[JaredJames]

My understanding is that the french government would not see a double standard : if the question refers to catholic nuns, one should be reminded that catholic male professionals also have distinctive dress codes. Monks or priest wear them. You can not understand the issue if you forget that burqa is only for women.

I also think there is a difference between being faced with someone in nun's clothing and someone in a burqa. To be able to see the face is important in human communication. If you are completely cut off and cannot see any more than the eyes, you cannot 'read' a person and it can pose problems.

Someone was discussing Katie Price (Jordan) and her marriage problems. They said that due to the high levels of botox injections, she was not able to register emotions. And when speaking to her husband (Peter Andre at the time) if she made a comment which was meant to be taking lightly, due to the lack of facial expression, he could not read her and understand this. Making her comments seem more hateful than they really were. Something which could certainly be a potential problem for her.

I know it isn't a brilliant example, but the fact is we read body language and it helps us communicate. If you remove this, people will have trouble communicating.

I'd also say that a person completely covered would be deemed less approachable.

This link refers to the importance of non-verbal communication when moving to a foreign country:
http://www.expats-moving-and-relocation-guide.com/nonverbal-communication.html

http://psychology.about.com/od/nonverbalcommunication/a/nonverbaltypes.htm

 

[nismaratwork]

Turkey makes my point. After WWI Islamic code was not allowed to integrate with or even run Turkish government as it had been Ottoman times; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk" .

I was waiting for this, and wondered why no one has made that point that Turkey is on its way to what would seem to be a serious social schism. I don't know that such a brief legacy of one respected leader can be a model for the rest of the world, unless it's to show that opposite of what moderate muslims wish to claim. Turkey is not moving in a very tolerant direction...

 

[nismaratwork]

I also think there is a difference between being faced with someone in nun's clothing and someone in a burqa. To be able to see the face is important in human communication. If you are completely cut off and cannot see any more than the eyes, you cannot 'read' a person and it can pose problems.

Someone was discussing Katie Price (Jordan) and her marriage problems. They said that due to the high levels of botox injections, she was not able to register emotions. And when speaking to her husband (Peter Andre at the time) if she made a comment which was meant to be taking lightly, due to the lack of facial expression, he could not read her and understand this. Making her comments seem more hateful than they really were.

I know it isn't a brilliant example, but the fact is we read body language and it helps us communicate. If you remove this, people will have trouble communicating.

I'd also say that a person completely covered would be deemed less approachable.

This law also applies to the hijab, which does not cover the face in the slightest and can be as little as a head-scarf.

 

[JaredJames]

This law also applies to the hijab, which does not cover the face in the slightest and can be as little as a head-scarf.

I was under the impression there were two separate laws, one for the hijab and one for the burqa? So it is only the one law then?

 

[humanino]

This law also applies to the hijab, which does not cover the face in the slightest and can be as little as a head-scarf.

No, hijab is only forbidden in schools. It is not forbidden anywhere else, it is not forbidden in university for instance. Many women wear hijab in France, as I said earlier only very few wear burqa. The law about hijab was much less controversial (although it already was, to some extent).

 

[mheslep]

The how-did-it-happen on Turkey's shift back towards an Islamic state, per columnist/author M. Steyn

Since he [ Atatürk ] founded post-Ottoman Turkey in his own image nearly nine decades ago, the population has increased from 14 million to over 70 million. But that five-fold increase is not evenly distributed. The short version of Turkish demographics in the 20th century is that Rumelian Turkey — i.e., western, European, secular, Kemalist Turkey — has been outbred by Anatolian Turkey — i.e., eastern, rural, traditionalist, Islamic Turkey. Ataturk and most of his supporters were from Rumelia, and they imposed the modern Turkish republic on a reluctant Anatolia, where Ataturk’s distinction between the state and Islam was never accepted. Now they don’t have to accept it. The swelling population has spilled out of its rural hinterland and into the once solidly Kemalist cities. [...]

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/229901/israel-turkey-and-end-stability/mark-steyn

 

[humanino]

Many analysts interpret the law, as well as the french government current behavior, as preparing the far right electorate for the 2012 elections. Supposedly they should catch back with the center later. We will see.

Whatever one thinks about the law itself, one should at least recognize : if there is an immigration issue in France (which I am not convinced at all), then repression does not address the issue. It only pleases the electorate sensible to the (putative) issue.

 

[nismaratwork]

Many analysts interpret the law, as well as the french government current behavior, as preparing the far right electorate for the 2012 elections. Supposedly they should catch back with the center later. We will see.

Whatever one thinks about the law itself, one should at least recognize : if there is an immigration issue in France (which I am not convinced at all), then repression does not address the issue. It only pleases the electorate sensible to the (putative) issue.

Well said.

 

[nismaratwork]

The how-did-it-happen on Turkey's shift back towards an Islamic state, per columnist/author M. Steyn


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/229901/israel-turkey-and-end-stability/mark-steyn

That's as lucid as it is disturbing in its implications for the future of a formerly reliable western ally.

 

[alt]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/its-unaustralian--rally-condemns-push-to-ban-burqa-20100919-15hy0.html

one snippet ..

''By turning their backs on this flawed way of life, it is testament of the superiority of Islamic values over Western values.''

.. and ensure you have a good look at the photo second down.

This is NOT good !

 

[Jack21222]

This is NOT good !

Can you elaborate?

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/its-unaustralian--rally-condemns-push-to-ban-burqa-20100919-15hy0.html

one snippet ..

''By turning their backs on this flawed way of life, it is testament of the superiority of Islamic values over Western values.''

.. and ensure you have a good look at the photo second down.

This is NOT good !

It's not good that AU is continuing its miserable record in regards to immigration, or it isn't good that some Arab women wear a truly horrendous outfit, or it isn't good that one culture feels superior to another... or it isn't good that as usual, everything other than acceptance of cultural norms in Muslim societies is seen as some kind of attack? Personally, I'll take all of the above, but it isn't clear from your post... I'm just sorry that AU is getting on board, and thrilled that at least nothing is being burned in effigy by the "other side"... yet. This whole thing is no way to resolve differences, or realistically do anyone any good. These issues reflect a division, they don't create or mend it.

 

[alt]

Nismar and jack - thanks for your responses. I got to go at the 'mo, but back tommorrow. One quick one though nismar - what's miserable about Aus immigration ?

 

[nismaratwork]

Nismar and jack - thanks for your responses. I got to go at the 'mo, but back tommorrow. One quick one though nismar - what's miserable about Aus immigration ?

Go at the mo... heh.

As for AU immigration, that's a fair question: First out of fairness I'll link to the official AU history of immigration. http://www.aph.gov.au/library/intguide/sp/settlement.htm

Now to the bad side... there is a history of wrongful detentions (they had a nasty scandal back in 2004-05), and keeping potential refugees in camps for prolonged periods. There are views such as these: http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/heartlessness-at-the-centre-of-an-immigration-scandal/

I mean, cash for visas (Howard govt) is a pretty unfortunate state of affairs.

Afghanis going home...
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Australia/other/DTel010202.html

General issues around seeking asylum: http://www.asiapacificforum.net/news/australia-ongoing-problems-in-immigration-detention.html

I would say that unlike the USA system, which is a terrible mess in the sense that it has little control... AU attempts to control far too much. It's obviously my view, and I'm not saying that AU is some horrible place to live in, far from it. If you're a western European, or American wanting to move to AU, it's a process, but hardly out of reach. If you're trying to get to AU for help or refuge however... it's pretty bad.

 

[alt]

This is NOT good ..

Just about every comment of the Muslim speakers in the article is offensive. Now you can say that that's freedom of speech, and I agree with you - providing it works both ways - which it doesn't - but anyway ..

What's NOT good however, is that this, the exact attitude you read in the article, is the prevailing one when Muslims form politically active groups, in the process of coming into another culture. Read the article - don't shoot the messenger. I didn't say these things, nor did I organise the meeting. Intelligent, educated and cultured Muslims did.

Women had two options, she said. ''The Western secular way of life, which robs a woman of her dignity, honour and respect, where she is considered little more than a commodity to be bought and sold, or the option of Islam, where a woman's dignity, respect and honour are priceless.''
Later she cited high rates of rape and domestic violence

I showed my wife and my daughter this article, and they were both sickened and horrified. Do you guys not have wives and daughters ? Then know that according to the prevailing Muslim attitude, Christian, Jewish, atheist women et al, (so long as they aren't Muslim) are a commodity to be bought and sold, have little or no dignity, respect and honour, and are highly prone to rape and domestic violence.

How is it that you see nothing wrong here, and nothing to remonstrate about ? You spoke up to critique my comment yet you did not lift a finger to even question the banal, obnoxious and highly offensive prevailing Muslim attitude, as typified in the comments by the Muslim speakers in the article.

 

[alt]

Go at the mo... heh.

As for AU immigration, that's a fair question: First out of fairness I'll link to the official AU history of immigration. http://www.aph.gov.au/library/intguide/sp/settlement.htm

Now to the bad side... there is a history of wrongful detentions (they had a nasty scandal back in 2004-05), and keeping potential refugees in camps for prolonged periods. There are views such as these: http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/heartlessness-at-the-centre-of-an-immigration-scandal/

I mean, cash for visas (Howard govt) is a pretty unfortunate state of affairs.

Afghanis going home...
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Australia/other/DTel010202.html

General issues around seeking asylum: http://www.asiapacificforum.net/news/australia-ongoing-problems-in-immigration-detention.html

I would say that unlike the USA system, which is a terrible mess in the sense that it has little control... AU attempts to control far too much. It's obviously my view, and I'm not saying that AU is some horrible place to live in, far from it. If you're a western European, or American wanting to move to AU, it's a process, but hardly out of reach. If you're trying to get to AU for help or refuge however... it's pretty bad.

It's obviously my view,

Yes, and as an outsider, I suppose you get read reports in the global press which favour a particular viewpoint. I don't think Australias policies have been miserable at all - generous more than anything. But I'm sorry, I really don't have the breath to go into a looong debate with you on this issue. Such debates tend to rage on and on and on, and drag everything else into them, and resolve little.

 

[Jack21222]

This is NOT good ..

Just about every comment of the Muslim speakers in the article is offensive.

I disagree. Some comments were off the mark, but I found few outright offensive.

What's NOT good however, is that this, the exact attitude you read in the article, is the prevailing one when Muslims form politically active groups, in the process of coming into another culture.

Just like every other group? Almost every religion, ideology, and economic doctrine I can think of forms a politically active group in whatever culture they find themselves in. I, for one, am comfortable with this.

I showed my wife and my daughter this article, and they were both sickened and horrified. Do you guys not have wives and daughters ?

No, I don't.

Then know that according to the prevailing Muslim attitude, Christian, Jewish, atheist women et al, (so long as they aren't Muslim) are a commodity to be bought and sold, have little or no dignity, respect and honour, and are highly prone to rape and domestic violence.

I agree with you that the quote is over-the-top. I disagree that it's the prevailing Muslim attitude. I disagree that it's unique to Islam, or even representative of most Muslims. I've seen Christians say the SAME THING as what you quoted. I recently saw an example over at PZ Myers' blog which I'm too lazy to dig up at the moment. I've also seen Muslim women embrace Western culture.

You're making the same mistake that the Muslim speaker you quoted is making. You're setting up a false dichotomy between Islam and the West. Just because this one Muslim says something doesn't mean you have to buy into it.

How is it that you see nothing wrong here, and nothing to remonstrate about ? You spoke up to critique my comment yet you did not lift a finger to even question the banal, obnoxious and highly offensive prevailing Muslim attitude, as typified in the comments by the Muslim speakers in the article.

It's up to you to demonstrate that the speakers in the article reflect the "prevailing Muslim attitude." I personally know and have known a good number Muslims that certainly do not agree with what you call the "prevailing attitude."

If you want to play the "quote a fundamentalist" game, I'll bet I can match you Christian for Muslim all night. But, I don't think this is the thread for that. I'll even bet I can find crazy Jewish fundamentalists to match you with quote for quote. If you want to step outside of religion, I can quote extreme right-wingers or left-wingers all night, too.

 

[Evo]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/its-unaustralian--rally-condemns-push-to-ban-burqa-20100919-15hy0.html

one snippet ..

''By turning their backs on this flawed way of life, it is testament of the superiority of Islamic values over Western values.''

.. and ensure you have a good look at the photo second down.

This is NOT good !

It just reinforces the fact that Muslim women are the victims of oppression, IMO.

 

[nismaratwork]

It just reinforces the fact that Muslim women are the victims of oppression, IMO.

Generations of oppression... it's like listening to a full-blown Stockholm Syndrome victim go one. It's upsetting, but also hard to imagine that like the women who perform genital mutilations on their daughters that it's not a function of upbringing, cultural pressure, and... almost brainwashing.

Alt: I'm not trying to start an AU immigration debate, nor am I deeply knowledgeable about AU immigration policies beyond what I stated, which is why I made it clear it was an opinion. If you'd like to send me a PM, or start a thread on the subject I'd be happy to read any material you have to offer.

 

[alt]

I disagree. Some comments were off the mark, but I found few outright offensive.

Really ? We have a different view on offensive then (to be expected, I suppose). I found the following offensive too, to my family, my culture, and to the country (mine) that has offered these folk a better way of life.

- Islamic values are superior to ''flawed'' Western secular values
- By turning their backs on this flawed way of life, it is testament of the superiority of Islamic values over Western values.''

Also ..

- We dress like this because it is the command of Allah, not any man.''

I'm still wondering if there really is some prescription by the word of Allah, for women to dress in bags of black from head to toe. I thought it was merely along the lines of 'one should dress modestly' as indeed exists in the Judeo Christian (and I assume other) holy books. No doubt you'll point me to Allah's specific prescription in this regard, if such exists. In fact, now that I think of it, wasn't Islam devoid of the 'black bag' syndrome in it's first couple of centuries ? If so, it is hardly the word of one, omnific Allah !

Just like every other group? Almost every religion, ideology, and economic doctrine I can think of forms a politically active group in whatever culture they find themselves in. I, for one, am comfortable with this.

Is this reason to ignore it ? I for another, am not comfortable with it. It is also interesting that other religions, races, etc, coming into another country, have historically successfully assimulated witht he existing culture, particularly after a generation or two. This does not seem to be the case with Muslims - in fact, the opposite seems to be happening.

No, I don't. (have wife, daughter ..)

If you did, you might also have an appreciation of the GREAT offence caused in referring to them as a commodity to be 'bought and sold, (and who have) little or no dignity, respect and honour, and are highly prone to rape and domestic violence'

(Incidentally, for rape and violence, look up Muslim 'dancing boys' (Bacha Bazi, I think they call them) - a delicacy for some gung ho Islamic war lords, and upper crust types, I hear.)

I agree with you that the quote is over-the-top. I disagree that it's the prevailing Muslim attitude. I disagree that it's unique to Islam, or even representative of most Muslims. I've seen Christians say the SAME THING as what you quoted. I recently saw an example over at PZ Myers' blog which I'm too lazy to dig up at the moment. I've also seen Muslim women embrace Western culture.

I believe it IS the prevailing Muslim attitude. At one end of the spectrum, we might have the more moderate (as per your last sentence, above), and at the other, the more militant, terrorist type. But 2,000 people were at this meeting, and I'll bet not one spoke in protest of it. There was a discussion program on TV about this issue last night (Lateline, SBS TV). Without exception, the aforementioned attitude did in fact prevail within all the Muslim participants.

You're making the same mistake that the Muslim speaker you quoted is making.

That being the case, why do you chastise me for it, but not the Muslim speaker ?

You're setting up a false dichotomy between Islam and the West. Just because this one Muslim says something doesn't mean you have to buy into it.

It wasn't just this one Muslim. As I said above, it was a meeting of 2,000 listening to, and presumably, sympathetic to the comments. Multiply this by any number of similar meetings, and some more strident than this one.

It's up to you to demonstrate that the speakers in the article reflect the "prevailing Muslim attitude." I personally know and have known a good number Muslims that certainly do not agree with what you call the "prevailing attitude."

My friend, I too know a great number of Muslim people. On average, I would say that they DO think along the lines as typified in the article, with of course, the extremities at each end. I come from a very ethnic background myself, and have, and have had, considerable exposure to this.

If you want to play the "quote a fundamentalist" game, I'll bet I can match you Christian for Muslim all night. But, I don't think this is the thread for that. I'll even bet I can find crazy Jewish fundamentalists to match you with quote for quote. If you want to step outside of religion, I can quote extreme right-wingers or left-wingers all night, too.

This threads title ? French Senate Approves a Ban on Burqas

I posted and commented on the Australian Sydney morning Herald link, because it was remarkably related to the central issue on this thread.

You however, are free to decide what you choose to discuss here or anywhere else.

 

[physicsdude30]

If the majority of people want something enough and you don't respond to it, then they'll simply switch political support to a party who will.

I'm not sure what France's constitution says, but in the United States they knowingly intentionally made a Bill of Rights to protect certain rights from "majority rule". The freedom of religion was one of them along with some others. It was meant so 95% of the population couldn't just say, "We don't want this minority religion, we have the majority so..." What does the U.K. say about anything similar to a bill of rights?

Someone said not all Muslims wear these types of clothing, so it's cultural. To put things into perspective, there are different denominations of Islam, just like all Christian denominations are not even the same. Do we have any actual data saying that there are no Islam denominations that have these types of dress codes? As far as useful information, it should be checked into so as to see if it's cultural or a particular religious denomination.

I don't know how they do it in the U.K. and France, but in the U.S. there needs to be "reasonable harm" for the government to infringe on religion, such as stopping blood transfusions for children. As far as relevant information for this thread, do we have any real data that these types of muslim clothing have an impact on crime, versus just some people "freaking out because of looks"?

I'm the type of person you likes to make sure I get my facts straight.

 

[physicsdude30]

Jared, you use "indoctrinating women" as a reason to ban. To put things into perspective, it doesn't matter what religion you are, many out there are going to call you brainwashed because you're not their religion instead. Wouldn't that be playing favorites with religion?

I mean I hear other religions accusing Christianity of brainwashing their followers. For example, I heard this one who calls himself a pagan complaining that he grew up Christian and then changed religions. He was complaining how Christianity, Judaism, and Islam mess up their boys by circumsizing them, so that they're later personal life with their wife is very messed up. Yea yea yea, I get a headache from all these people always complaining about all the other religions.

 

[Jack21222]

I believe it IS the prevailing Muslim attitude. At one end of the spectrum, we might have the more moderate (as per your last sentence, above), and at the other, the more militant, terrorist type.

Then it's your job to prove it. Or at the very least provide some supporting evidence a little stronger than anecdotes.

But 2,000 people were at this meeting, and I'll bet not one spoke in protest of it.

What's 2,000 divided by 1,000,000,000?

That being the case, why do you chastise me for it, but not the Muslim speaker ?

The Muslim speaker isn't in this thread.

 

[alt]

Then it's your job to prove it. Or at the very least provide some supporting evidence a little stronger than anecdotes.

My 'anecdote' was in response to the Muslin anecdote in the article linked, that ..

- Islamic values are superior to ''flawed'' Western secular values
- By turning their backs on this flawed way of life, it is testament of the superiority of Islamic values over Western values.''

Are you not questioning THOSE anecdotes, or don't you take them as anacdotes ?

What's 2,000 divided by 1,000,000,000?

Emmm .. that's just .. nonsense, and wrong at that, for world Muslim population is closer to 1.6B;

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Global-Muslim-population-hits-157-billion-Report/articleshow/5101282.cms

That's about one in four persons on this planet - and rising !

The Muslim speaker isn't in this thread.

Ah, OK - that makes sense (lol).

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Jared, you use "indoctrinating women" as a reason to ban. To put things into perspective, it doesn't matter what religion you are, many out there are going to call you brainwashed because you're not their religion instead. Wouldn't that be playing favorites with religion?

To the indoctrination argument in general I would say that an aweful lot of people seem to be indoctrinated to believe that they ought to where clothes in general, that penises and vagina are "dirty", and sex is "naughty". Pointing to any cultural custom and decrying it as "indoctrination" is pretty well ridiculous.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm still wondering if there really is some prescription by the word of Allah, for women to dress in bags of black from head to toe. I thought it was merely along the lines of 'one should dress modestly' as indeed exists in the Judeo Christian (and I assume other) holy books. No doubt you'll point me to Allah's specific prescription in this regard, if such exists. In fact, now that I think of it, wasn't Islam devoid of the 'black bag' syndrome in it's first couple of centuries ? If so, it is hardly the word of one, omnific Allah !

There are the religious books and then the books of religious law (similar to Judaism) which are supposedly derived or inspired from the religious texts. These laws are interpreted differently by different people, of course. From what I have read the Burqa comes from a story (or fact) that Muhammad kept his wives veiled so that no other man might look upon them and lust after them. It is apparently seen as a matter of protection from the untoward advances of men. A woman wearing a Burqa is considered to be emulating the modesty of the wives of Muhammad. In some cultures it has become a standard interpretation of the modesty demanded by the Qur'an.

 

[alt]

There are the religious books and then the books of religious law (similar to Judaism) which are supposedly derived or inspired from the religious texts. These laws are interpreted differently by different people, of course. From what I have read the Burqa comes from a story (or fact) that Muhammad kept his wives veiled so that no other man might look upon them and lust after them. It is apparently seen as a matter of protection from the untoward advances of men. A woman wearing a Burqa is considered to be emulating the modesty of the wives of Muhammad. In some cultures it has become a standard interpretation of the modesty demanded by the Qur'an.

Thanks TSA - that was very clear. So like most religious things, it is mans interpretation, rather than the word of God / Allah.

 

[Jack21222]

My 'anecdote' was in response to the Muslin anecdote in the article linked, that ..

- Islamic values are superior to ''flawed'' Western secular values
- By turning their backs on this flawed way of life, it is testament of the superiority of Islamic values over Western values.''

Are you not questioning THOSE anecdotes, or don't you take them as anacdotes ?

Those aren't anecdotes, those are opinions. EVERYBODY believes their values are superior to everybody else's values. Otherwise, they would have different values, right?

Emmm .. that's just .. nonsense, and wrong at that, for world Muslim population is closer to 1.6B;

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Global-Muslim-population-hits-157-billion-Report/articleshow/5101282.cms

That's about one in four persons on this planet - and rising !

It was an order-of-magnitude estimate. There probably weren't exactly 2,000 people at that rally, either.

I guess those are my 2 main points.

1) Everybody believes their values are the best. I don't get offended when somebody admits it, just like I wouldn't expect them to get offended when I say my values are the best. It just seems weird to single out Islam.

2) Pointing at 2x10^3 people in a group consisting of 1.6x10^9 and claiming that the small subset is representative of the group as a whole is nonsense, especially when that subset was self-selected due to things they have in common.

Even if there were 1000 such rallies across the world, and there was no overlapping in between them, meaning TWO MILLION fundamentalist extremists, that is still THREE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE smaller than the whole group.

If you want to claim that there are ONE HUNDRED SIXTY MILLION Muslim whackjobs out there, that still leaves 90% that aren't crazy. Personally, I'd say that 10% figure holds for about any religion, but that's just a number I just made up completely out of thin air, and you should pay no attention to it.

That brings me back to my first point in that I don't believe Islam is inherently any crazier than any other culture or religion. Crazy Jews throw rocks at people using electronics on the Sabbath, crazy Christians refuse all medical treatment for their children, etc.

This goes beyond religion, too. Animal rights advocates are 90% normal people, but you have that crazy 10% that firebombs research labs.

Again, my 90/10 estimate is just a VERY rough ballpark, I wouldn't linger on that too much. But I do think it's roughly constant throughout any group.

 

[CRGreathouse]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Global-Muslim-population-hits-157-billion-Report/articleshow/5101282.cms

That's about one in four persons on this planet - and rising !

That blows my mind. It wasn't that many years ago that it was just one billion...!

 

[alt]

Those aren't anecdotes, those are opinions. EVERYBODY believes their values are superior to everybody else's values. Otherwise, they would have different values, right?



It was an order-of-magnitude estimate. There probably weren't exactly 2,000 people at that rally, either.

I guess those are my 2 main points.

1) Everybody believes their values are the best. I don't get offended when somebody admits it, just like I wouldn't expect them to get offended when I say my values are the best. It just seems weird to single out Islam.

2) Pointing at 2x10^3 people in a group consisting of 1.6x10^9 and claiming that the small subset is representative of the group as a whole is nonsense, especially when that subset was self-selected due to things they have in common.

Even if there were 1000 such rallies across the world, and there was no overlapping in between them, meaning TWO MILLION fundamentalist extremists, that is still THREE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE smaller than the whole group.

If you want to claim that there are ONE HUNDRED SIXTY MILLION Muslim whackjobs out there, that still leaves 90% that aren't crazy. Personally, I'd say that 10% figure holds for about any religion, but that's just a number I just made up completely out of thin air, and you should pay no attention to it.

That brings me back to my first point in that I don't believe Islam is inherently any crazier than any other culture or religion. Crazy Jews throw rocks at people using electronics on the Sabbath, crazy Christians refuse all medical treatment for their children, etc.

This goes beyond religion, too. Animal rights advocates are 90% normal people, but you have that crazy 10% that firebombs research labs.

Again, my 90/10 estimate is just a VERY rough ballpark, I wouldn't linger on that too much. But I do think it's roughly constant throughout any group.

OK, well, I don't think there's anything more that I can add that I haven't said already.

 

[alt]

That blows my mind. It wasn't that many years ago that it was just one billion...!

It's a surprising development. The Utube link I posted earlier extrapolates it into the near future.





spelling edit

 

[GTank7]

I'm probably going to sound emo in saying this, but it's what I feel.
That Burqa is straight up ugly, it is demeaning to women & just beyond hideous.
Now you can wear w.e you want in "Quran-based Arabia" and your backward ideologies, but you're not coming in the heart of Paris, the heart of Western culture & ideology & stain my city with your "moral" values & beliefs, and at the end of the day, believe that I will go to hell, and it's Ok for you to stain my culture, I'm sorry but there is limits.
This is 21st century, I'm all for tolerance, but take your Burqa back in the desert, where it belongs, maybe it'll be useful there & protect you from the sand..

 

[G037H3]

I'm probably going to sound emo in saying this, but it's what I feel.
That Burqa is straight up ugly, it is demeaning to women & just beyond hideous.
Now you can wear w.e you want in "Quran-based Arabia" and your backward ideologies, but you're not coming in the heart of Paris, the heart of Western culture & ideology & stain my city with your "moral" values & beliefs, and at the end of the day, believe that I will go to hell, and it's Ok for you to stain my culture, I'm sorry but there is limits.
This is 21st century, I'm all for tolerance, but take your Burqa back in the desert, where it belongs, maybe it'll be useful there & protect you from the sand..

Agree, except for the pro-tolerance disclaimer.

 

[BobG]

I'm probably going to sound emo in saying this, but it's what I feel.
That Burqa is straight up ugly, it is demeaning to women & just beyond hideous.
Now you can wear w.e you want in "Quran-based Arabia" and your backward ideologies, but you're not coming in the heart of Paris, the heart of Western culture & ideology & stain my city with your "moral" values & beliefs, and at the end of the day, believe that I will go to hell, and it's Ok for you to stain my culture, I'm sorry but there is limits.
This is 21st century, I'm all for tolerance, but take your Burqa back in the desert, where it belongs, maybe it'll be useful there & protect you from the sand..

Obviously, a die hard fan of mini-skirts and hot pants.

Just a note about comments that Islam doesn't require burqas - it only requires that women dress modestly; therefore it must be cultural, etc. It's not even cultural. It's just human nature that a few will feel good if they outdo others in adhering to their religion - i.e. they dress more modestly than all their neighbors.

I'm sure many Christians believe in dressing modestly, as well. The standard "modestly" is left to individual interpretation. For some, a woman exposing her ankles might be immodest, or at least very risque. For others, modest might mean at least wearing underwear with their min-skirts just in case they have to bend over and pick something up.

The number of Muslim women that wear burqas is so small as to make this a completely insignificant issue in practice. Banning them only has symbolic value. The ban does France about as much good as a ban on buttoning the top button of your blouse or shirt.

 

[mugaliens]

The number of Muslim women that wear burqas is so small as to make this a completely insignificant issue in practice. Banning them only has symbolic value. The ban does France about as much good as a ban on buttoning the top button of your blouse or shirt.

Do you have any numbers? Is it 10? 10,000?

 

[BobG]

Do you have any numbers? Is it 10? 10,000?

Yes. In fact, I believe the numbers were mentioned earlier in the thread. In France, probably about 2,000 out of 6 million Muslims in France wear burqas.

Of course, someone else noted that that statistic might be misleading because some conservative Muslims don't like to have their wives seen in public, so there may be more unseen burqas. I was a little perplexed as to why women wearing burqas in their house would be offensive enough to be included in the debate, so I didn't comment on that post.

I guess to be fair, the comment about women wearing burqas that are unseen in public was following the line of banning burqas as a way to force Muslim women to be more liberated, at least in public (overlooking the fact that, if his comment was correct, it would probably have the effect of more Muslim women being held hostage in their own homes so the public couldn't see their wives less modestly attired). Presumably, if a Muslim woman was fined for wearing a burqa, her husband would wind up paying the fine and decide his wife should wear less modest attire - at which point his lack of fashion sense would cause him to give up completely and let his wife pick out her own clothes.

 

[nismaratwork]

Yes. In fact, I believe the numbers were mentioned earlier in the thread. In France, probably about 2,000 out of 6 million Muslims in France wear burqas.

Of course, someone else noted that that statistic might be misleading because some conservative Muslims don't like to have their wives seen in public, so there may be more unseen burqas. I was a little perplexed as to why women wearing burqas in their house would be offensive enough to be included in the debate, so I didn't comment on that post.

I guess to be fair, the comment about women wearing burqas that are unseen in public was following the line of banning burqas to a way to force women to be more liberated, at least in public. Presumably, if a Muslim woman was fined for wearing a burqa, her husband would wind up paying the fine and decide his wife should wear less modest attire - at which point his lack of fashion sense would cause him to give up completely and let his wife pick out her own clothes.

.000333%... I don't care if you assume that represents 1 in ten women who actually wear a burqa, the result is still absurd justification for a law. I'm with Evo on this issue in general, but the solution isn't a law like this, it's cultural reform. For those cultural relativists out there, of which I am nearly one... the answer is: because.

 

[Monique]

What I find strange is that people in this thread argue that the burqa ban is an anti-Islamic reaction by the French, in order to stop immigration or to 'scare away' people of Islamic faith. At the same time it is mentioned that the number of Islamic women that wear a burqa is very low, even in the countries where the majority of the population is Islamic! Is this some kind of irrational anti-anti-Islamic argument? Clearly the burqa does not represent the majority of Islamic culture.

It is a ban against being unrecognizable in public, I find that a most reasonable law. We all abide to laws of decency, if you don't follow them you will find yourself being fined really quickly.

 

[humanino]

It is a ban against being unrecognizable in public, I find that a most reasonable law. We all abide to laws of decency, if you don't follow them you will find yourself being fined really quickly.

I agree with you on a matter of reason. On a matter of emotion, this very thread confirms my feeling that the reason for the law is merely to distract the attention of the public for political purposes. It is not a very useful law (it concerns only very few women in France) but it triggers intense debates and noise.

 

[nismaratwork]

What I find strange is that people in this thread argue that the burqa ban is an anti-Islamic reaction by the French, in order to stop immigration or to 'scare away' people of Islamic faith. At the same time it is mentioned that the number of Islamic women that wear a burqa is very low, even in the countries where the majority of the population is Islamic! Is this some kind of irrational anti-anti-Islamic argument? Clearly the burqa does not represent the majority of Islamic culture.

It is a ban against being unrecognizable in public, I find that a most reasonable law. We all abide to laws of decency, if you don't follow them you will find yourself being fined really quickly.

While it would certainly raise my chances of being stopped by a police officer, this is specifically about religious headgear, so no, I don't believe it's a public safety issue. I think it's reactionary, because it is one of the few highly visible signs that someone is Muslim (of some flavor), much as peyos, a funny hat and such mark the Hasidim. A man with a beard could be Muslim, or he could just have a beard, and a skullcap/keppi/yarmulke... can't be touched because it is, in the end, a kind of hat. This comes down to, "What visible difference makes us uncomfortable that we can go after"... this is it.

 

[Office_Shredder]

What I find strange is that people in this thread argue that the burqa ban is an anti-Islamic reaction by the French, in order to stop immigration or to 'scare away' people of Islamic faith. At the same time it is mentioned that the number of Islamic women that wear a burqa is very low, even in the countries where the majority of the population is Islamic! Is this some kind of irrational anti-anti-Islamic argument? Clearly the burqa does not represent the majority of Islamic culture.

It is a ban against being unrecognizable in public, I find that a most reasonable law. We all abide to laws of decency, if you don't follow them you will find yourself being fined really quickly.

Let's say a non-binding resolution is passed which just says "Muslims are retarded". It doesn't actually do anything at all, and by the letter of the law affects nobody, but you would be hard pressed to say that this would not affect Muslims in any way.

If a law is passed for the purpose of attacking Islam, regardless of how effective it is at doing so, then yes, it's an anti-Islamic reaction. Questions of its physical effectiveness when examining the issue are secondary to questions of its intent

 

[Monique]

I agree with you on a matter of reason. On a matter of emotion, this very thread confirms my feeling that the reason for the law is merely to distract the attention of the public for political purposes. It is not a very useful law (it concerns only very few women in France) but it triggers intense debates and noise.

The attention that it is getting in the media may be disproportionate, but I still think that the basis of the law is valid.

While it would certainly raise my chances of being stopped by a police officer, this is specifically about religious headgear, so no, I don't believe it's a public safety issue. I think it's reactionary, because it is one of the few highly visible signs that someone is Muslim (of some flavor), much as peyos, a funny hat and such mark the Hasidim. A man with a beard could be Muslim, or he could just have a beard, and a skullcap/keppi/yarmulke... can't be touched because it is, in the end, a kind of hat. This comes down to, "What visible difference makes us uncomfortable that we can go after"... this is it.

According to the CNN article: "The French Senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face". It doesn't state anything about religious headgear. I'm fine with people wearing headscarves or any other headgear, covering your face is something entirely different and you cannot ignore that.