Fuel paradox arising from Galilean transformation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a perceived paradox related to the Galilean transformation, specifically concerning the power output of an engine as observed from two different reference frames. Participants explore the implications of differing power calculations and energy considerations in the context of classical mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario involving two observers, ##O## and ##O'##, analyzing the work done by an engine from their respective frames, leading to different power outputs.
  • Another participant suggests that the work done on the exhaust stream might provide insight into the paradox, implying that energy is not fully accounted for in the initial analysis.
  • A different participant points out that momentum is not conserved in the example, indicating that energy is slipping out unaccounted for and suggests considering the reactive acceleration of the Earth to resolve the issue.
  • One participant illustrates a simpler example involving a ##2 \text{ kg}## object gaining energy in different frames, highlighting the potential paradox in energy supply and its implications for the overall energy increment.
  • The same participant expands on their example by discussing the energy changes when two equally massive objects push off from each other, noting that the total energy increment remains consistent across frames despite individual energy changes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of their analyses, with no consensus reached on the resolution of the paradox. Multiple competing interpretations of the energy dynamics and conservation laws are presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the initial assumptions regarding momentum conservation and the treatment of energy in different frames, indicating that the discussion is contingent on these factors.

SeniorGara
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TL;DR
Does the fuel paradox arise when the same engine operates with different power in different frames of reference?
I have encountered a problem related to the Galilean Transformation. Let's consider two observers who will be referred to as ##O## and ##O^{'}##, with their corresponding coordinates ##(t,x,y,z)## and ##(t^{′},x^{′},y^{′},z^{'})## respectively. They are initially at the same location, at time zero. Furthermore, observer ##O^{'}## moves away from observer ##O## as shown in the picture.
geogebra-export.png


Any point ##P## that does not move in relation to ##O## will be described by ##O^{'}## with the following equations: $$x_{P}'=x_{P}-vt,\quad{y'_{P}=y_{P},}\quad{z'_{P}=z_{P},}\quad{t'=t}.$$ If an object (for example a car) moves in relation to ##O## according to the equation $$x(t)=vt+\frac{1}{2}at^2,$$ ##O'## will describe this movement in the following way: $$x'(t)=x(t)-vt=\frac{1}{2}at^2.$$ Assuming that no resistance force is present, the resultant force is equal to the force of engine thrust. Of course, ##F=F'=ma## because ##\ddot{x}(t)=\ddot{x'}(t)=a##. Observer ##O## claims that the work done by the force of engine thrust is equal to $$W(t)=F\cdot{x(t)}=ma\left(vt+\frac{1}{2}at^2\right)=mavt+\frac{1}{2}ma^2t^2\mathrm{,}$$ whereas ##O'## observes that the engine has performed work equal to $$W'(t)=F'\cdot{x'(t)}=ma\left(\frac{1}{2}at^2\right)=\frac{1}{2}ma^2t^2.$$ Thus, ##O## concludes that the engine is operating at power $$P(t)=\frac{dW}{dt}(t)=mav+ma^2t,$$ while ##O'## considers that the engine power is equal to $$P'(t)=\frac{dW'}{dt}(t)=ma^2t.$$ Here is my question: If the same engine works with different power in two frames of reference, wouldn't it lead to the "fuel paradox"? In other words, according to ##O##, the fuel will be depleted faster than according to ##O'##. Of course, it can't be true. So, where is the mistake?
 
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SeniorGara said:
In other words, according to ##O##, the fuel will be depleted faster than according to ##O'##. Of course, it can't be true. So, where is the mistake?
What about the work being done on the exhaust stream? [Always the answer in this flavor of paradox]
 
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Notice that momentum is not conserved in your example, so you don't have a closed system and energy is slipping out unaccounted for. Account for the reactive acceleration of the Earth and you will find your missing energy.

Edit: scooped by mere seconds!
 
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You don't need anything as elaborate as your calculations. If a ##2 \ kg## object increases its velocity from ##0## to ##1 \ m/s## in one frame, then it gains ##1J## of energy. But, in a frame where it changes from ##1## to ##2 \ m/s## it gains ##3J## of energy. This gives the same potential paradox when considerihg the energy supply.
 
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PeroK said:
You don't need anything as elaborate as your calculations. If a ##2 \ kg## object increases its velocity from ##0## to ##1 \ m/s## in one frame, then it gains ##1J## of energy. But, in a frame where it changes from ##1## to ##2 \ m/s## it gains ##3J## of energy. This gives the same potential paradox when considerihg the energy supply.
To carry this scenario through, let us consider that this ##2 \text{ kg}## object gets its velocity increment by pushing off at ##1 \text{ m/s}## from an equally massive object. Our object moves off to the right at ##+1 \text{ m/s}## and the other object moves off to the left at ##-1 \text{ m/s}##.

In the original rest frame of the two objects, that is ##2J## of total energy increment, ##1J## for each.

In a frame where the two objects start at ##1 \text{m/s}##, that is ##-1J## for the left hand object and ##+3J## for the right hand object. The total is ##2J##. Same as before.

The change in mechanical energy is invariant under a Galilean transformation to a new inertial frame. Also under a Lorentz transform as it turns out, though the formula for mechanical energy needs to be corrected for that to work.
 
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