Fundamental thermodynamics relation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the fundamental thermodynamic relation expressed as ##dU = Tds - Pdv + \sum_i \ \mu_i \ dN_i##. Participants explore various derivations and interpretations of this equation, considering different types of work and heat contributions that could be included in the equation. The scope includes theoretical aspects of thermodynamics and the implications of different work terms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that increasing the energy of a system leads to an increase in kinetic energy, which is lost through work done by the particles, and discusses the implications for the last term in the equation related to chemical interactions.
  • Another participant agrees with the intuitive idea and notes that variations in internal energy can arise from different types of work and heat addition, mentioning examples like elastic work and polarization work.
  • A question is raised about the validity of adding other contributions to the fundamental equation and why it is typically presented in a simplified form.
  • It is stated that all types of work processes can be summed into the fundamental equation, but textbooks often focus on the three historically significant terms for clarity in thermodynamic studies.
  • A reference to Herbert Callen's work is made, highlighting the importance of being aware of additional work terms in thermodynamics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that various contributions can be included in the fundamental equation, but there is no consensus on why the equation is typically presented in its simplified form. The discussion remains open regarding the inclusion of additional work terms.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the traditional presentation of the fundamental thermodynamic relation, noting that it may not encompass all possible work contributions. There is also an acknowledgment of the dependence on the context in which thermodynamics is applied.

davidge
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I was looking at the fundamental equation ##dU = Tds - Pdv + \sum_i \ \mu_i \ dN_i## and I was thinking of how many different ways one has for deriving it.

I know I have to look through a book on Thermodynamics. I actually have done that some time ago and I will do that again. But the following seems to me not to violate any principle of physics. So I just like to know whether it is valid.

So one way of thinking about the fundamental equation above seems like

Suppose we increase the energy of a system by a tiny amount. This corresponds (in average) to an increase of the kinetic energy of a typical molecule of the system. As the system expands after we added the tiny amount of energy to it, that increment on the kinetic energy of the particle is lost by the work the particle has done. The last term in the equation could the regarded as due chemical interactions of molecule-to-molecule, and the plus sign indicates that the potential energy associated with the interaction becomes less negative as molecules moves a little bit apart from each other.
 
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I think your intuitive idea is OK. The variation in the internal energy could arise due to different types of works and/or heat addition. You indicated 3 of them (heat, mechanical work, and chemical work). But there many others and each work will extend dU by another term. For example elastic work (σdε), polarization work (EdD), ...

For chemical work, you can simply think of it as the energy needed to add one more particle to a system that has already N particle. Chemical reactions, as you mentioned, are complex and involve variations in many types of work and/or heat.
 
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Thanks, @Useful nucleus. So is it correct to add up all the other contributions into the fundamental equation? If so, why is it usually presented in the form I wrote above (i.e. the terms not included)?
 
davidge said:
So is it correct to add up all the other contributions into the fundamental equation? If so, why is it usually presented in the form I wrote above (i.e. the terms not included)?

Yes, all kinds of possible work processes can be summed up into the equation you wrote above. Texts usually reserve the term fundamental equation to U=U(S,V,N,...) or S=S(U,V,N,...) instead of their first differentials like the one you wrote above. Authors claim that for the purposing of studying thermodynamics, let's just focus on the three historically most important work and heat terms. In other fields where thermodynamics is applied the other terms can be introduced as needed. For example when you study elasticity, one certainly meets σdε. A favorite of mine is Herbert Callen's introduction to thermodynamics where he warns the reader about these other terms and from time to time gives problems on magnetic work.

I also found the following IUPAC technical report to be very useful in discussing many of these work terms. See table 1:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4377/766430bebdf5b1b18b88f61493d9ce47d466.pdf
 
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