Gauge Transform: What Conditions Do We Need for $\psi$?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the conditions required for gauge transformations in electromagnetism, particularly focusing on the scalar potential ##\psi## and its implications for the vector potential ##\vec{A}## and scalar potential ##V##. Participants explore the mathematical framework of gauge invariance, the relationship between electric and magnetic fields, and the implications of these transformations in theoretical contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants discuss the transformation of the vector potential ##\vec A## and the conditions under which the electric field remains gauge invariant, specifically referencing the relationship ##\nabla \times \nabla \psi = 0##.
  • Others propose that the transformation of the scalar potential ##V## must include a term involving the time derivative of ##\psi## to maintain gauge invariance, leading to the expression ##V \rightarrow V - \frac{\partial \psi}{\partial t}##.
  • A participant questions how the transformation leads to the expression for the electric field ##\vec{E} = - \frac{\partial \vec{A}}{\partial t} - \nabla V##, seeking clarification on the derivation.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of gauge freedom, explaining that different choices of potentials can yield the same physical electromagnetic fields, provided certain conditions are met.
  • Some participants clarify that the gauge transformation can be expressed as ##A \rightarrow A + \nabla \lambda, V \rightarrow V - \partial_{t}\lambda##, emphasizing the role of the scalar field ##\lambda## in maintaining gauge invariance.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of the conditions for ##\beta## and ##\lambda##, with some participants exploring the relationship between these quantities and their dependence on time and spatial coordinates.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the implications of gauge transformations and the conditions for invariance. While some agree on the necessity of certain transformations, others raise questions and propose alternative interpretations, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the mathematical framework of differential topology and the conditions under which vector fields can be expressed as gradients. However, the specifics of what constitutes a 'nice enough region' are not detailed, leaving some assumptions unaddressed.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying electromagnetism, gauge theories, or mathematical physics, particularly in understanding the nuances of gauge invariance and the implications of potential transformations.

yungman
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I understand ##\vec A\rightarrow\vec A+\nabla \psi\;## as ##\;\nabla \times \nabla \psi=0##[tex]\Rightarrow\;\nabla\times(\vec A+\nabla \psi)=\nabla\times\vec A[/tex]

But what is the reason for
[tex]V\;\rightarrow\;V+\frac{\partial \psi}{\partial t}[/tex]

What is the condition of ##\psi## so

[tex]\nabla \left(V+\frac{\partial \psi}{\partial t}\right)=\nabla V[/tex]

Thanks
 
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Recall Faraday's law:

$$ \nabla \times \vec{E} = - \frac{\partial \vec{B}}{\partial t} = - \frac{\partial}{\partial t}\left( \nabla \times \vec{A} \right)$$

So it's tempting to make the definition

$$ \vec{E} = - \frac{\partial \vec{A}}{\partial t} $$

but now we make your transformation

$$ \vec A\rightarrow\vec A+\nabla \psi\ $$
$$ \vec{E} \rightarrow \vec{E} - \frac{\partial \nabla \psi}{\partial t} $$

so the electric field now fails to be gauge invariant. So we introduce another gauge-dependent parameter to "fix" this:

$$ V\;\rightarrow\;V-\frac{\partial \psi}{\partial t} $$

and change our definition of E

$$ \vec{E} = - \frac{\partial \vec{A}}{\partial t} - \nabla V $$

Now the electric and magnetic fields are gauge invariant, as required.
 
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From
$$ \vec{E} \rightarrow \vec{E} - \frac{\partial \nabla \psi}{\partial t} $$
$$ V\;\rightarrow\;V-\frac{\partial \psi}{\partial t} $$
How do you get to
$$ \vec{E} = - \frac{\partial \vec{A}}{\partial t} - \nabla V $$
Thanks
 
Given a vector potential ##A##, we can write Faraday's law as ##\nabla \times (E + \partial_{t}A) = 0##. Now it is a fundamental result of differential topology that a curl free vector field in a 'nice enough region' (I'll spare you the details of what 'nice enough region' means) can be written as the gradient of some smooth scalar field ##V## i.e. ##E + \partial_{t}A = -\nabla V##; ##V## is of course the scalar potential. Hence the electric field can be written as ##E = -\nabla V - \partial_{t}A##.

Now there is a gauge freedom in the potential fields. Notice that if we define a new vector and scalar potential by ##A' = A + \alpha, V' = V + \beta##, where ##\alpha## is a vector field and ##\beta## a scalar field, such that the new pair gives us the same physical electromagnetic field then we must have that ##\nabla \times \alpha = 0## and ##\nabla \beta + \partial_{t}\alpha = 0##. The first condition implies that ##\alpha = \nabla \lambda## for some smooth scalar field ##\lambda##. The second condition consequently says that ##\nabla(\beta + \partial_{t}\lambda) = 0## meaning that the expression in the parenthesis is only a function of time ##\beta + \partial_{t}\lambda = \gamma(t)## i.e. ##\beta =- \partial_{t}\lambda ## where we have absorbed ##\gamma(t)## into ##\lambda##.

In other words, we can make a gauge transformation of the form ##A \rightarrow A + \nabla \lambda , V\rightarrow V - \partial_{t}\lambda## and still get the same physical electromagnetic field.
 
Last edited:
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Thanks

What is the meaning of Gauge? What is Gauge freedom, Gauge invariant?
 
Hi. In the above context, a gauge is just a particular choice of ##A,V##. The potential fields have a gauge freedom in the sense that any two gauges ##A,V## and ##A',V'## such that ##A' = A + \nabla \lambda## and ##V' = V - \partial_{t}\lambda##, will result in the same physical EM field. A gauge invariant quantity is one that does not depend on the choice of gauge.
 
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WannabeNewton said:
Given a vector potential ##A##, we can write Faraday's law as ##\nabla \times (E + \partial_{t}A) = 0##. Now it is a fundamental result of differential topology that a curl free vector field in a 'nice enough region' (I'll spare you the details of what 'nice enough region' means) can be written as the gradient of some smooth scalar field ##V## i.e. ##E + \partial_{t}A = -\nabla V##; ##V## is of course the scalar potential. Hence the electric field can be written as ##E = -\nabla V - \partial_{t}A##.

Now there is a gauge freedom in the potential fields. Notice that if we define a new vector and scalar potential by ##A' = A + \alpha, V' = V + \beta##, where ##\alpha## is a vector field and ##\beta## a scalar field, such that the new pair gives us the same physical electromagnetic field then we must have that ##\nabla \times \alpha = 0## and ##\nabla \beta + \partial_{t}\alpha = 0##. The first condition implies that ##\alpha = \nabla \lambda## for some smooth scalar field ##\lambda##. The second condition consequently says that ##\nabla(\beta + \partial_{t}\lambda) = 0## meaning that the expression in the parenthesis is only a function of time ##\beta + \partial_{t}\lambda = \gamma(t)## i.e. ##\beta =- \partial_{t}\lambda ## where we have absorbed ##\gamma(t)## into ##\lambda##.

Thanks for the detail reply

In other words, we can make a gauge transformation of the form ##A \rightarrow A + \nabla \lambda , V\rightarrow V - \partial_{t}\lambda## and still get the same physical electromagnetic field.

Do you mean ##\beta## is a function of time ONLY where we let ##\beta=-\frac{\partial \lambda}{\partial t}##. Since ##\beta## is a time function ONLY, ##\nabla \beta=0##?

Am I understanding this correctly?

So for ##\nabla \lambda\;\neq\;0\;and\;\beta=\frac{\partial\lambda}{\partial t}##, then ##\lambda=f(x,y,z)+g(t)## so ##\nabla \lambda=\nabla (f(x,y,z)),\; \beta=\frac{d g(t)}{d t}##

Thanks
 
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Nono I'm saying that since ##\nabla (\beta + \partial_{t} \lambda) = 0##, all of ##\beta + \partial_{t} \lambda## is a function of time only i.e. ##\beta + \partial_t \lambda = \gamma(t)## hence ##\beta = \partial_{t}\lambda - \gamma(t)##. Then I just absorbed ##\gamma(t)## into ##\lambda## i.e. I defined a new ##\lambda'## by ##\lambda' = \lambda + \int _{0}^{t}\gamma(t')dt'## then ##-\partial_{t}\lambda = -\partial_{t}\lambda'-\gamma(t)\Rightarrow \beta = -\partial_{t}\lambda'##.
 
WannabeNewton said:
Nono I'm saying that since ##\nabla (\beta + \partial_{t} \lambda) = 0##, all of ##\beta + \partial_{t} \lambda## is a function of time only i.e. ##\beta + \partial_t \lambda = \gamma(t)## hence ##\beta = \partial_{t}\lambda - \gamma(t)##. Then I just absorbed ##\gamma(t)## into ##\lambda## i.e. I defined a new ##\lambda'## by ##\lambda' = \lambda + \int _{0}^{t}\gamma(t')dt'## then ##-\partial_{t}\lambda = -\partial_{t}\lambda'-\gamma(t)\Rightarrow \beta = -\partial_{t}\lambda'##.

I got it, I mistakenly thinking ##\nabla \times \vec \alpha=0\;\Rightarrow\; \vec \alpha## is position independent. But actually it only means ##\vec \alpha## is irrotational, but it can still be a function of 3 space coordinates.

Thanks
 
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The electromagnetic field in terms of the four-potential reads (using Heaviside-Lorentz units with [itex]c=1[/itex])
[tex]\vec{E}=-\vec{\nabla} \Phi-\partial_t \vec{A}, \quad \vec{B}=\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{A}.[/tex]
From the second equation we see that the magnetic components don't change, if I use
[tex]\vec{A}'=\vec{A}-\vec{\nabla} \chi[/tex]
with an arbitrary scalar field [itex]\chi[/itex] instead of [itex]\vec{A}[/itex] as vector potential. Now we look for a scalar potential [itex]\Phi'[/itex] such that
[tex]\vec{E}=-\vec{\nabla} \Phi'-\partial_t \vec{A}'=-\vec{\nabla} (\Phi' -\partial_t \chi)-\partial_t \vec{A}.[/tex]
The expression in the parentheses must be [itex]\Phi[/itex], and thus
[tex]\Phi'=\Phi+\partial_t \chi.[/tex]
Thus the gauge transformation of the potentials must be
[tex]\Phi'=\Phi+\partial_t \chi, \quad \vec{A}'=\vec{A}-\vec{\nabla} \chi.[/tex]
 
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