Geodesics between two points ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the nature and number of geodesics connecting two points in various spacetimes, exploring both theoretical and practical implications. Participants examine examples from geometry and physics, including the 2D sphere and Schwarzschild spacetime, while considering the effects of spacetime signature and topology on geodesic existence and uniqueness.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that on a 2D sphere, there are two geodesics connecting two points along great circles, one minimizing and the other maximizing distance.
  • Others argue that in 3D space, an infinite number of geodesics can connect the north and south poles.
  • One participant questions whether the signature of spacetime (-, +, +, +) imposes restrictions on the number of geodesics, suggesting that the sphere does not have such a signature.
  • Another participant suggests that in Schwarzschild spacetime, due to its symmetry, there are infinite geodesics connecting antipodal points with different coordinate times.
  • It is proposed that generally, there is no limit to the number of geodesics connecting two points, although a theorem exists stating that geodesics are unique in a neighborhood around every point in Minkowski spacetime.
  • One participant mentions that infinitely many null geodesic paths can exist between two events in curved Lorentzian manifolds, referencing the Einstein ring configuration in gravitational lensing.
  • Another point raised discusses the infinite number of orbits with the same period around a central body, noting complications from pericenter effects.
  • A later reply introduces the question of whether at least one geodesic can always be found connecting two spacetime points, regardless of type.
  • One participant highlights that topology affects geodesic existence, using the example of a plane with a removed point that eliminates certain geodesics.
  • Another participant questions whether a defect in the manifold can be detected through calculations within the manifold itself.
  • Additional references are provided for further reading on geodesic incompleteness and observationally indistinguishable spacetimes.
  • One participant reiterates the question of whether the usual spacetime signature restricts the number of geodesics, emphasizing that geodesics can exist without a defined metric if an affine connection is present.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the existence and number of geodesics, with no consensus reached on whether a geodesic can always be found between two points or the implications of spacetime signature and topology.

Contextual Notes

Discussions involve assumptions about the nature of geodesics in different spacetimes, the role of symmetry, and the impact of topology on geodesic existence, which remain unresolved.

smallphi
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How many geodesics (up to affine reparametrization) connect two arbitrary points in arbitrary spacetime ?

On the 2D sphere for example, you have two geodesics which are the parts of a the great circle connecting the two points but circulating in opposite directions. I think one of them minimizes the distance between the two points, the other maximizes it.
 
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Taking the surface of a sphere in 3d as an example, there exist an infinite number of geodesics connecting the "north pole" and the "south pole".
 
I wonder if the usual signature of spacetime (-, +, +, +) restricts in some way the possible number of geodesics ?

The sphere is a good example but doesn't have such signature.
 
I think the sphere example works even in Schwartzchild spacetime due to its spherical symmetry:

One can take two antipodal spatial points in Sch. metric (points with the same r, diametrically opposite across the black hole) but with different coordinate times. If there is one geodesic connecting them, then there are infinite images of that geodesic obtained by rotating it in 'space' around the spatial axis of the two points.

It seems like the more symmetry the spacetime has (the more Killing vectors), the more geodesics.
 
In general, there's no limit to the number of geodesics connecting two points. There is, however, a theorem proving that there exists a neighborhood around every point for which geodesics are unique. That neighborhood is the entire manifold in Minkowski spacetime.
 
One easy way to see that there are potentially infinitely many null geodesic paths between two events in curved Lorentzian manifolds is to study the Einstein ring configuration as treated in weak-field gravitational lensing.
 
If you want some realistic examples of multiple geodesics connecting two events in space-time, you need only consider orbits.

How many different orbits have the same period around a central body? An infinite number - as long as the semi-major axis is the same, two bodies will follow the same orbit and "meet up again" at the same event (in the Newtonian approximation, anyway).

Pericentron effects (like the shifting of the perihelion of mercury) will complicate this simple analysis, but I don't believe it changes the result. I'm not positive, because I haven't worked it out in sufficient detail.
 
Ok I think we resolved the original question.

Here is a little twist: It it always possible to find at least one geodesic that connects two spacetime points? I don't mean necessarily a timelike geodesic.
 
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It probably depends on the topology. For instance, if you take a plane (R^2), you have a single straight line between any two points. Now remove a point at the origin - any pair of points that has a straight line that originally passed through the origin won't have a geodesic connecting them after you remove the origin.
 
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Can such a 'defect' in the manifold (the removed point) be 'felt' by calculating something within the manifold instead of embedding in a bigger manifold (the full plane) and seeing that there is a hole.
 
  • #12
smallphi said:
I wonder if the usual signature of spacetime (-, +, +, +) restricts in some way the possible number of geodesics ?

The sphere is a good example but doesn't have such signature.
One need not have a metric defined in order to define a geodesic. If there exists an affine connection (which does not require a metric to be defined at all) on the manifold then geodesics become possible.

Pete
 

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