Godel's ITs & the Physical World: Is a ToE impossible?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the implications of Gödel's incompleteness theorems on the possibility of formulating a Theory of Everything (ToE) in physics. Participants explore whether these theorems apply to the physical world in the same way they do to mathematics, and the feasibility of achieving a comprehensive understanding of the universe through theoretical frameworks like M-theory and string theory.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference Hawking and Dyson's claims that Gödel's theorems suggest a fundamental ToE is impossible, questioning the applicability of these theorems to physical theories.
  • One participant argues that the pursuit of a ToE is futile, suggesting that different aspects of the universe may require different explanations and that humanity's confidence in finding a singular theory is misguided.
  • Another participant notes the ongoing debate in theoretical physics about proving one theory with another, specifically mentioning M-theory and its relationship to the S-matrix.
  • Concerns are raised about the limitations of string theory and its inability to fully capture the reality of the universe, with some suggesting that there are ways to reconcile General Relativity with Quantum Theory.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about the existence of a ToE, asserting that current theories do not align with the realities of the universe and rejecting the Big Bang theory.
  • Another participant emphasizes the subjective nature of scientific belief systems, questioning whether scientists align more with Platonism or Wittgensteinian views.
  • Some express frustration with the scientific community's adherence to dominant theories, suggesting that this leads to an ego-driven pursuit of validation rather than genuine understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the possibility of a Theory of Everything, with multiple competing views expressed regarding the implications of Gödel's theorems, the validity of current theories, and the nature of scientific inquiry.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions touch on philosophical implications and the subjective nature of scientific belief, but these aspects remain unresolved and are not universally accepted among participants.

greswd
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Both Hawking and Dyson have said that Godel's incompleteness theorems prove that it is impossible for us to formulate an absolutely fundamental Theory of Everything.

Is that true? Do the theorems apply to the physical world as they apply to the realm of mathematics?
 
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To be truthful, they are chasing rainbows in finding ToE...there is no such thing, to explain everything in the universe, you may explain this one, but others are different. That is the arrogance of humanity to be correct on this subject. There are many versions of mathematics in this physical world. Indeed we have discovered some areas of cosmology about the physics. The mathematics is one thing. We need to rethink existence before we learn about everything in universe.
 
greswd said:
Both Hawking and Dyson have said that Godel's incompleteness theorems prove that it is impossible for us to formulate an absolutely fundamental Theory of Everything.

Is that true? Do the theorems apply to the physical world as they apply to the realm of mathematics?

A very good question, I would have asked similar. Especially it is a very actual debate because in theoretical physics we try to prove one theory with another theory mathematically. (M theory for S Matrix)
 
M-theory is close, but to many million miles away from the theory. I believe we would be able to know our universe. But others no chance. String theory is other failure for ToE. There is a beautiful equation there, but something does not complete the reality. There is ways to marry GR with Quantum Theory.
 
DarkoDornel said:
M-theory is close, but to many million miles away from the theory. I believe we would be able to know our universe. But others no chance. String theory is other failure for ToE. There is a beautiful equation there, but something does not complete the reality. There is ways to marry GR with Quantum Theory.

Hawking has a different opinion on this. But we are talking about Goedels theorem of incompleteness and I gave a hint of the second theorem of incompleteness of Geodel which explains, why we cannot prove Theory A with Theory B. The Axiomatic of both Theories will forbid it.
 
Hawking is pulling on strings ( pardon the pun!). There is no theory of everything, it does not fit in too the realities of universe. We think of the theories of today and the past has a house, we dig the foundations, and we layed the floor...and that is it. I do not believe in the big bang at all!
 
Not is impossible...it just that we try to hard to complete something. If one scientist says one thing its gospel...everybody starts giving into them, sending them into ego trip!
 
DarkoDornel said:
Hawking is pulling on strings ( pardon the pun!). There is no theory of everything, it does not fit in too the realities of universe. We think of the theories of today and the past has a house, we dig the foundations, and we layed the floor...and that is it. I do not believe in the big bang at all!

sure it is a question of believing systems in science. Are we Platon believer or are we Wittgenstein believer.
 
I believe that mankind could do better, but its the arrogance of everything in the present.
 

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