Golf Ball in Flat Space-Time: Return or Shift?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a thought experiment involving a golf ball as a test particle in flat space-time, particularly focusing on the effects of a sunlike star appearing and then disappearing. Participants explore the implications of this scenario on the golf ball's position and the conservation of energy within the framework of general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that the golf ball would shift towards the star due to space contraction and questions whether it would return to its original position after the star disappears.
  • Another participant argues that the scenario of a star instantly appearing and disappearing violates fundamental physical principles, making it impossible to provide a coherent answer.
  • A participant acknowledges the thought experiment nature of the scenario and seeks a concrete answer regarding the test particle's behavior, despite recognizing the violation of physical laws.
  • One participant emphasizes the necessity of adhering to conservation of energy in general relativity, suggesting that a coherent scenario must not violate this principle.
  • Another participant introduces a modified scenario involving two stars, one with negative mass-energy, to propose that energy conservation could hold, leading to the conclusion that the golf ball would revert to its original position.
  • A participant challenges the revised scenario, stating that it violates local energy conservation laws in general relativity.
  • Another participant adds that the concept of simultaneity being frame dependent underlies the local nature of energy conservation in a relativistic context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the feasibility of the thought experiment and the implications for energy conservation. There is no consensus on how to reconcile the scenario with the principles of general relativity.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the assumptions of instantaneous changes in mass-energy configurations and the implications for energy conservation in general relativity. The scenario's dependence on hypothetical constructs raises questions about its applicability to real-world physics.

Davephaelon
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Imagine a test particle (say a golf ball) just floating in flat space-time. Now have a sunlike star instantly appear some distance away. From the perspective of a distant observer, (using very distant background stars for reference), the golf ball will be shifted towards the star a certain amount due to the contraction of space along the line intersecting the star's center and the center of the golf ball. Now, magically make the sunlike star disappear.

Question: Will the golf ball simply return to it's original location (which I assume must be the case) as the space around it reverts to its original shape, or will it be permanently shifted towards where the sunlike star was located?
 
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Davephaelon said:
Now, magically make the sunlike star disappear.
You cannot do this and expect physics to give you an answer. It would violate basic physical principles.
 
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Well, it was just a thought experiment, not real world. I probably shouldn't have used the word "magical". I've been reading Kip Thorne's excellent book "Black Holes and Time Warps", and such thought experiments are sprinkled throughout the book. I realize it would violate physical principles - stars just don't pop in and out of existence - but surely there must be a concrete answer to the question of what happens to the "test particle".
 
The conservation of energy is "baked in" to the basic equations of general relativity. You are going to have to provide a means of creating the star that doesn't violate that conservation to be able to get a coherent answer. If you don't do so, there's no way to use relativity to describe the scenario.
 
Hmmm..., this would violate the rule that macro-scale negative energy densities are forbidden in our universe, but to make energy conservation hold, the scenario could change to having the golf ball, initially, midway between two stars of identical size and mass, except that one star is composed of negative mass-energy. Then the net energy of both stars is exactly zero. And as long as they simultaneously pop in and out of existence, energy is conserved.

Looking at it from this point of view, the displaced golf ball, (relative to the distant stars), would have to revert to its original position for overall energy conservation to hold. In a sense, this scenario is similar to the Alcubierre Warp, which always puzzled me. In the Alcubierre Warp there is negative-energy density behind the ship and positive-energy density in front of the ship. It always struck me that switching on such a hypothetical field would simply displace the original position of the craft a distance appropriate to the field's strength, but once the field is turned off again, the ship would return to its original position. I know the usual description is that the ship rides a wave of space-time distortion, like a surfer. I have to be missing something here, which would require a formal, mathematical understanding of General Relativity.
 
Energy conservation is a local law in general relativity; your revised scenario violates it in two places instead of one. Even granting the possibility of negative energy.

You can't do what you want to do in a relativistic universe, in short. You can form a star by collapsing a gas cloud, but you can't make one pop into existence.
 
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To add to what Ibix said, simultaneity is frame dependent (which is essentially the underlying reason that energy conservation must be local).
 

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