GR: Attractors & Liouville's Theorem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between attractors in general relativity (GR) and Liouville's theorem from classical Hamiltonian mechanics. Participants explore whether GR possesses attractors and if a version of Liouville's theorem applies within the context of GR, particularly considering its Hamiltonian formulation.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that Liouville's theorem implies there are no attractors in classical Hamiltonian mechanics due to the preservation of phase space volume.
  • Another participant suggests that the question of attractors in GR is complex, given the limited understanding of the global properties of solutions to the initial value problem.
  • A participant claims that every Hamiltonian system, including GR, obeys Liouville's theorem, but notes that the phase space in field theories is infinite dimensional, complicating the relationship with 3-dimensional volumes of matter.
  • One participant discusses the Raychaudhuri equation, suggesting it indicates shrinking volume but acknowledges that GR is invariant under time reversal, allowing for both expansion and contraction scenarios.
  • Concerns are raised about the applicability of Liouville's theorem in field theories, with one participant questioning its rigor due to the infinite degrees of freedom involved.
  • A later reply confirms that while Liouville's theorem formally holds in field theories, its application may not be fully rigorous.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence of attractors in GR and the applicability of Liouville's theorem in the context of field theories. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the global properties of solutions in GR and the implications of infinite dimensional phase spaces, which may affect the interpretation of Liouville's theorem.

atyy
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TL;DR
Does GR have attractors?
In classical Hamiltonian mechanics, because of Liouville's theorem about the volume of phase space being preserved by time evolution, there are no attractors.

Naively, I think of the Raychaudhuri equation in GR as showing a shrinking volume. However, I guess Raychaudhri's equation does not deal with the phase space of GR.

Does GR have attractors?
Is there something like the Liouville theorem in GR, especially since GR has a Hamiltonian formulation?
 
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Just a guess, but given that very little is known about the global properties of solutions to the initial value problem, I would say that it is a very hard question.
 
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atyy said:
Is there something like the Liouville theorem in GR, especially since GR has a Hamiltonian formulation?
Every Hamiltonian system obeys the Liouville theorem. GR is not an exception. Note, however, that the phase space in field theories is infinite dimensional. In particular, the 3-dimensional volume of a lump of matter (which may shrink due to gravitational collapse) has nothing to do with the infinite-dimensional phase-space volume.
 
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atyy said:
Naively, I think of the Raychaudhuri equation in GR as showing a shrinking volume.
GR is invariant under the time reversal. Raychaudhuri equation can describe also the expansion. In the black-hole context, such an expanding solution is called a white hole. Such solutions are usually discarded because they require unrealistic initial conditions, or equivalently, because for such solutions entropy decreases with time.
 
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Demystifier said:
Every Hamiltonian system obeys the Liouville theorem. GR is not an exception. Note, however, that the phase space in field theories is infinite dimensional. In particular, the 3-dimensional volume of a lump of matter (which may shrink due to gravitational collapse) has nothing to do with the infinite-dimensional phase-space volume.
Are you sure the theorem holds in field theories?
 
martinbn said:
Are you sure the theorem holds in field theories?
Formally yes, but I guess it's not fully rigorous due to the infinite number of degrees of freedom.
 

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