GR index gymnastics -- Have I misunderstood something or typo?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of the energy-momentum tensor in general relativity (GR), specifically in the context of cosmology and the Friedmann equations. Participants explore the implications of raising indices on the tensor and the potential discrepancies between a professor's claim and the participants' calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the professor's assertion that the energy-momentum tensor can be expressed as ##T^{\mu \nu} = \mathrm{diag}(\rho, p, p, p)##, suggesting it may be a typo.
  • Another participant prompts for the results of raising the indices on ##T_{\mu \nu}##, leading to a detailed calculation that shows a different form for ##T^{\mu \nu}##.
  • A participant suggests that the professor might have been using a different metric, possibly local inertial coordinates, which could explain the discrepancy.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of local inertial coordinates versus global comoving coordinates, with some participants clarifying their definitions and contexts.
  • One participant notes that the Friedmann equations are typically derived from the 0-0 component of the Einstein Field Equation, which might not include the terms involving pressure that are causing the disagreement.
  • References to Carroll's "Spacetime and Geometry" are made, highlighting differences in the expression of the energy-momentum tensor in the textbook compared to the professor's claim.
  • A later reply introduces the possibility that the professor was using a tetrad or orthonormal basis, which could also account for the differences in interpretation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correct form of the energy-momentum tensor and the implications of raising indices. There is no consensus on whether the professor's claim is correct or if it represents a misunderstanding.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that comoving coordinates and local inertial coordinates are distinct concepts, with implications for how the energy-momentum tensor is interpreted in different contexts. The discussion also highlights the potential for confusion arising from different conventions or assumptions in GR.

Jonsson
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Hello there,

I am learning GR and in the cosmology chapter, we are using the metric
$$
ds^2 = - dt^2 + a^2(t) \left[ \frac{dr^2}{1 - \kappa r^2} + r^2 d \Omega \right].
$$

Suppose now that ##U^\mu = (1,0,0,0)## and the energy momentum tensor is
$$
T_{\mu \nu} = (\rho + p)U_\mu U_\nu + p g_{\mu \nu}.
$$

My professors says that this implies ##T^{\mu \nu} = \mathrm{diag}(\rho, p,p,p)##. Surely this is a typo, or is it just me that don't understand how to raise indecies? Thanks
 
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Jonsson said:
is it just me that don't understand how to raise indecies?

What do you get when you try to raise the indexes on ##T_{\mu \nu}##?
 
PeterDonis said:
What do you get when you try to raise the indexes on ##T_{\mu \nu}##?

$$
T^{\mu \nu} = g^{\mu \rho}g^{\nu \sigma} T_{\rho \sigma} = g^{\mu \rho}g^{\nu \sigma}\left[(\rho + p)U_\rho U_\sigma + pg_{\rho \sigma} \right] = (\rho + p)U^\mu U^\nu + p g^{\mu \nu} =
\begin{bmatrix}
\rho + p &0&0&0\\
0&0&0&0\\
0&0&0&0\\
0&0&0&0
\end{bmatrix}^{\mu \nu} +
\begin{bmatrix}
-p &0&0&0\\
0&p\frac{1 - \kappa r^2}{a^2}&0&0\\
0&0&p \frac{1}{a^2r^2}&0\\
0&0&0&p \frac{1}{a^2r^2\sin^2\theta}
\end{bmatrix}^{\mu \nu}
=
\begin{bmatrix}
\rho &0&0&0\\
0&p\frac{1 - \kappa r^2}{a^2}&0&0\\
0&0&p \frac{1}{a^2r^2}&0\\
0&0&0&p \frac{1}{a^2r^2\sin^2\theta}
\end{bmatrix}^{\mu \nu} \neq \mathrm{diag}(\rho,p,p,p)^{\mu \nu}
$$
Is this correct, or is my professor right and I wrong?
 
Jonsson said:
Is this correct, or is my professor right and I wrong?

You are right if you use the metric you wrote down. I suspect, though, that your professor was implicitly using a different metric when he made his claim--one that is only valid in a small patch of spacetime around a given event. Are you familiar with the concept of local inertial coordinates in GR?
 
Inertial coordinates are free fall coordinates, the coordinates of a freely falling observer?

This is in the context of deriblant the Friedmann equations, so surely means comoving coordinates?
 
Jonsson said:
Inertial coordinates are free fall coordinates, the coordinates of a freely falling observer?

Local inertial coordinates are coordinates in which a chosen free-fall observer is at rest, and in which the metric is the Minkowski metric. But in a curved spacetime, such coordinates can only cover a small patch of spacetime centered on some particular event. They are not the same as global comoving coordinates.
 
This is in the context of deriving the Friedmann equations, so surely we are using comoving coordinates?
 
Jonsson said:
This is in the context of deriving the Friedmann equations, so surely we are using comoving coordinates?

Can you give more specific references, such as the textbook you are using?
 
Jonsson said:
This is in the context of deriving the Friedmann equations, so surely we are using comoving coordinates?

As a general comment, the Friedmann equations are usually derived by looking at the 0-0 component of the Einstein Field Equation (which doesn't bring in the terms involving ##p## that you are finding to differ from your professor's claim), and the trace of the Einstein Field Equation--which makes all of the extra factors involving the metric coefficients cancel out. So it's also possible that your professor was implicitly referring to taking the trace when he talked about ##\mathrm{diag}(\rho, p, p, p)##.
 
  • #10
Carroll -- Spacetime and geometry. Page 333
 
  • #11
Jonsson said:
Carroll -- Spacetime and geometry. Page 333

I don't have the actual book, but I'm familiar with the online lecture notes of his that the book was based on. Equation (8.18) in Chapter 8 of those notes says:

$$
T^\mu{}_\nu = \mathrm{diag} \left( - \rho, p, p, p \right)
$$

Notice two key differences: only one index is raised, and the sign of ##\rho## is flipped. Could this have been what your professor was actually saying?
 
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  • #12
PeterDonis said:
I don't have the actual book, but I'm familiar with the online lecture notes of his that the book was based on. Equation (8.18) in Chapter 8 of those notes says:

$$
T^\mu{}_\nu = \mathrm{diag} \left( - \rho, p, p, p \right)
$$

Notice two key differences: only one index is raised, and the sign of ##\rho## is flipped. Could this have been what your professor was actually saying?

No, then I wouldn't have needed to ask. Thank you for your help :)
 
  • #13
It is possible your professor is implicitly using a tetrad, i.e., an orthonormal basis, instead of a coordinate basis.

Edit: Also, note that comoving coordinates are not free fall coordinates. Comoving observers in a local inertial coordinate frame will move relative to each other at a velocity proportional to the (comoving) distance between them, i.e., Hubble's law.
 
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