Gravitational Lensing: Refraction or Something Else?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the nature of gravitational lensing and its comparison to refraction in optical lenses. Participants explore whether the bending of light in a gravitational field can be analogized to the behavior of light passing through a denser medium, such as glass, and examine the implications of this analogy within the framework of general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a strong gravitational field acts like spacetime is denser, causing light to be delayed similarly to how it behaves in a glass lens.
  • Others argue that while there are similarities between gravitational lensing and refraction, the analogy should not be taken too far, as the mathematical model in general relativity does not support the concept of "density of spacetime."
  • A participant questions whether 4D spacetime, bent by mass, can be viewed as "compressed space" in 3D, suggesting that if this analogy were valid, one might expect light to behave differently when passing through a concave mass.
  • Another participant emphasizes that refraction involves interactions with matter, which is distinct from the empty space described in general relativity, and notes that the analogy may hold mathematically under certain conditions, such as using geometrical optics and Fermat's principle.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the validity of the analogy between gravitational lensing and refraction. Multiple competing views remain regarding the interpretation of spacetime and the nature of light propagation in gravitational fields.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of clarity on the definitions of "density of spacetime" and the conditions under which the analogy may or may not hold. The discussion also highlights unresolved mathematical aspects related to the comparison of gravitational lensing and refraction.

Paige_Turner
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TL;DR
Does 4D spacetime, bent by mass, act like "compressed space" in 3D?
It seems like a strong gravitational field acts like spacetime is denser in some sense. Light passing through a gravitational lens is delayed, just like in a glass lens (which refracts because it's denser than air).
 
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While there are similarities between gravitational lensing and refraction by an ordinary glass lens, they are only similarities and can't be taken too far. There is nothing in the actual mathematical model in GR that corresponds to "density of spacetime", so that part of the analogy does not hold.
 
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Paige_Turner said:
Summary:: Does 4D spacetime, bent by mass, act like "compressed space" in 3D?

It seems like a strong gravitational field acts like spacetime is denser in some sense. Light passing through a gravitational lens is delayed, just like in a glass lens (which refracts because it's denser than air).
I have never seen any paper that made that analogy.
 
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Paige_Turner said:
Summary:: Does 4D spacetime, bent by mass, act like "compressed space" in 3D?

It seems like a strong gravitational field acts like spacetime is denser in some sense. Light passing through a gravitational lens is delayed, just like in a glass lens (which refracts because it's denser than air).
Light follows similar geometry if you only consider a convex (converging) lens (left-side diagrams).

If this analogy really held, you could theoretically find a galaxy or galaxy cluster that is concave in shape. One would naively expect light passing through volume of space with a concave-shaped mass to diverge (right-side diagrams).

1626401086219.png
 
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Paige_Turner said:
Summary:: Does 4D spacetime, bent by mass, act like "compressed space" in 3D?

It seems like a strong gravitational field acts like spacetime is denser in some sense. Light passing through a gravitational lens is delayed, just like in a glass lens (which refracts because it's denser than air).
As was stressed before, it is not literally the same to have refraction, which is usually naming the phenomena related to the interaction of the electromagnetic field with matter, i.e., due to scattering of em. waves with charged particles, and empty space is not considered as any kind of matter anymore since Einstein got rid of the aether.

Mathematically in some sense there's an analogy, because to describe "lensing" you can use for both usual refraction as well as the "bending of light" by gravitational fields using geometrical optics, which is the eikonal approximation of Maxwell's equations. It turns out that the light rays as defined by geometrical optics follow from Fermat's principle, and in matter-free space within GR, this leads formally to a geodesic equation for "massless particles". Fermat's principle of course is also a valid description of light propation in matter in the eikonal approximation. In this sense mathematically both effects are a bit analogous.
 

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