Gravitational waves and gravitation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between gravitational waves and gravitation, particularly focusing on whether the process of generating gravitational waves also produces gravitation and how these quantities might compare in magnitude. The conversation includes theoretical considerations, quantum mechanical interpretations, and specific examples involving mass distributions and tidal forces.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that gravitational waves are generated by changes in the mass quadrupole moment and question if this process also produces gravitation.
  • Others argue that "gravitation" typically refers to a gravitational field, while gravitational waves relate to the rate of change of that field, suggesting these quantities cannot be directly compared.
  • One participant notes that mass cannot be accelerated in isolation, as the center of mass of a complete system moves with constant velocity, which complicates the generation of gravitational fields.
  • Another participant introduces a specific example involving two masses in circular orbits, discussing the scaling of power radiated in gravitational waves versus kinetic and binding energy, indicating that these effects scale differently.
  • Questions are raised about the meaning of "AC" and "DC" components of tidal forces, with a participant drawing an analogy to electric currents and Fourier spectra.
  • A quantum mechanical perspective is introduced, proposing that real gravitons are associated with gravitational waves and questioning whether processes producing real gravitons also produce virtual gravitons.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between gravitational waves and gravitation, with no consensus reached on how these concepts interact or compare in magnitude. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing interpretations and models presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in comparing gravitational waves and gravitation due to differing definitions and the complexities of mass motion. The discussion also indicates that the effects of tidal forces and gravitational waves may not be directly comparable without careful consideration of their respective contexts.

Ranku
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Gravitational waves are generated when the mass quadrupole moment changes in time.
We also know motion of mass contributes to its gravitation. Does the producing process of gravitational waves, which involves mass in accelerated motion, produce gravitation as well? If so, is it of less, equal or more magnitude than the gravitational waves being generated?
 
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Ranku said:
Gravitational waves are generated when the mass quadrupole moment changes in time.
We also know motion of mass contributes to its gravitation. Does the producing process of gravitational waves, which involves mass in accelerated motion, produce gravitation as well? If so, is it of less, equal or more magnitude than the gravitational waves being generated?

Firstly, this question is a bit mixed up, as "gravitation" is normally considered to mean a gravitational field, but strength of gravitational waves is related to the rate of change of the gravitational field, so these quantities cannot be compared.

Secondly, you can't move or accelerate a mass in isolation (the center of mass of any complete system moves with constant velocity), so for example you can't cause the gravitational field of a system to change abruptly by pushing it sideways, because the gravitational field of the pushing mechanism will cancel out the change to first order.

The best you can do is to change the distribution of mass, creating tidal effects, plus gravitational waves if you do it fast enough.
 
Jonathan Scott said:
Firstly, this question is a bit mixed up, as "gravitation" is normally considered to mean a gravitational field, but strength of gravitational waves is related to the rate of change of the gravitational field, so these quantities cannot be compared.

Secondly, you can't move or accelerate a mass in isolation (the center of mass of any complete system moves with constant velocity), so for example you can't cause the gravitational field of a system to change abruptly by pushing it sideways, because the gravitational field of the pushing mechanism will cancel out the change to first order.

The best you can do is to change the distribution of mass, creating tidal effects, plus gravitational waves if you do it fast enough.

Ok, let me put it in a quantum mechanical way. Gravity waves are real gravitons. Gravity is virtual gravitons. Does any process that produces real gravitons also produce virtual gravitons?
 
Ranku said:
Gravitational waves are generated when the mass quadrupole moment changes in time.
We also know motion of mass contributes to its gravitation. Does the producing process of gravitational waves, which involves mass in accelerated motion, produce gravitation as well? If so, is it of less, equal or more magnitude than the gravitational waves being generated?

For concreteness, let's imagine a system consisting of two objects of mass m, in circular orbits of radius r about their common center of mass. The power radiated in gravitational waves scales like [itex](m/r)^5[/itex]. The kinetic energy and binding energy of the system scale like [itex]m^2/r[/itex]. Although this is an apples-and-oranges comparison (power versus energy), I think it should be pretty clear that the two effects scale differently, so there is no particular reason to expect them to be on the same order of magnitude. To do more of an apples-to-apples comparison, you'd probably want to consider some measure of tidal forces (e.g., the Weyl tensor) at some distance from the system. In realistic observations, we wouldn't even use the same apparatus to try to detect both effects. For a system whose gravitational waves we might hope to be able to detect, we would be looking for an AC component of the tidal forces, whereas any DC component of such a system would be masked by the presence of all the other masses in our galaxy.
 
bcrowell said:
For concreteness, let's imagine a system consisting of two objects of mass m, in circular orbits of radius r about their common center of mass. The power radiated in gravitational waves scales like [itex](m/r)^5[/itex]. The kinetic energy and binding energy of the system scale like [itex]m^2/r[/itex]. Although this is an apples-and-oranges comparison (power versus energy), I think it should be pretty clear that the two effects scale differently, so there is no particular reason to expect them to be on the same order of magnitude. To do more of an apples-to-apples comparison, you'd probably want to consider some measure of tidal forces (e.g., the Weyl tensor) at some distance from the system. In realistic observations, we wouldn't even use the same apparatus to try to detect both effects. For a system whose gravitational waves we might hope to be able to detect, we would be looking for an AC component of the tidal forces, whereas any DC component of such a system would be masked by the presence of all the other masses in our galaxy.

So what is meaning of "AC" and "DC" components of tidal force?

Also, can you answer the gravity waves question quantum mechanically: Gravity waves are real gravitons. Gravity is virtual gravitons. Does the process that produces real gravitons also produce virtual gravitons?
 
Ranku said:
So what is meaning of "AC" and "DC" components of tidal force?
The same as for an electric current:the oscillating and non-oscillating terms in the Fourier spectrum.
 

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