Hamilton's principle and virtual work by constraint forces

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Hamilton's principle and its application to constraint forces in mechanical systems, particularly focusing on the virtual work done by these forces. Participants explore the implications of ideal versus non-ideal constraints in the context of holonomic and semiholonomic systems.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding how Hamilton's principle demonstrates that the virtual work done by constraint forces is zero, specifically referencing a statement from Goldstein.
  • Another participant notes that constraints that do zero net virtual work are referred to as ideal constraints and highlights that Goldstein assumes ideal constraints in his analysis.
  • A different participant criticizes others for misunderstanding the D'Alembert-Lagrange principle, suggesting that they mischaracterize systems with ideal constraints as non-ideal.
  • The same participant reiterates their confusion about the author's intent in the original question, indicating a lack of clarity in the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the understanding of ideal versus non-ideal constraints, with some asserting that the concept of non-ideal constraints is misunderstood, while others seek clarification on the implications of Hamilton's principle.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of ideal and non-ideal constraints, as well as the application of the D'Alembert-Lagrange principle in the context of the discussion.

Kashmir
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Found a question on another website, I have the exact same question. Please help me

Goldstein says :
1631703142815.png


I do not understand how (2.34) shows that the virtual work done by forces of constraint is zero. How does the fact that "the same Hamilton's principle holds for both holonomic and semiholonomic systems" show that the additional forces of semiholonomic constraint do no work in the
##\delta q_k##

 
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Contraints that do zero net virtual work are sometimes called ideal constraints. Not all constraints are ideal (https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01399622/document)

Here Goldstein is asuming ideal constraints (the work of the forces of constraint do not appear in the right hand side of 2.34).
 
andresB said:
aints that do zero net virtual work are sometimes called ideal constraints. Not all constraints are ideal (https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01399622/document)
these guys completely do not understand what the D'Alembert-Lagrange is.
They think that they invented "nonideal constraints" but actually they consider systems with ideal constraints and given active forces applied. Some people begin to write articles before reading textbooks :)
 
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wrobel said:
these guys completely do not understand what the D'Alembert-Lagrange is.
They think that they invented "nonideal constraints" but actually they consider systems with ideal constraints and given active forces applied. Some people begin to write articles before reading textbooks :)
So what does the author mean? I still didn't get it
 

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