Have men been priced out of the dating market?

[StrayCatalyst]

The sort of women who look at men as commercial entities, you wouldn't want to date anyway - especially if you're what they would consider a "good catch". I've never tried online dating, and don't plan to. I'm neither rich nor handsome, but I've never had difficulties in finding friends or partners, as I'm not looking for wealthy supermodels, or pretty goldbrickers in search of a sugar daddy. Keep in mind that personals ads are as deceptive as possible, as people are trying to market themselves to snag a partner that's likely to be as dishonest and desperate as they are...

 

[Bacle2]

My un-scientific opinion:

I have come to believe women are equipped with a sixth sense.
Women can detect pretense, psychological barriers, and even self deception as if they were scents. The unfortunate ones are attracted to it.

If you find that women scatter when you enter a room, it's probably something inside you and not them. old jim

So , what is it then with all the (very many) women who date, or are attracted-to, convicts--convicted murderes, rapists even?

Still, there seems to be some data agreeing with Jamma2112; it seems it is mostly
rich people who are marrying each other nowadays. The percentage of people marrying
correlates pretty-well with income.

 

[Evo]

So , what is it then with all the (very many) women who date, or are attracted-to, convicts--convicted murderes, rapists even?

Because they grew up around these types of people and is all they can find or feel they are worthy of?

Still, there seems to be some data agreeing with Jamma2112; it seems it is mostly
rich people who are marrying each other nowadays. The percentage of people marrying
correlates pretty-well with income.

Where did you get this data? Please post it.

 

[Lavabug]

Spidey senses can't predict the future but they can see the red flags.

Obviously not, given the number of women with abusive partners and spouses who endure violence sometimes for years before they end up getting murdered.

 

[Evo]

Obviously not, given the number of women with abusive partners and spouses who endure violence sometimes for years before they end up getting murdered.

Not all women have spidey senses. (You realize the spidey senses is a bit of humor, right? Some people call it common sense and an ability to notice when things aren't right.

 

[Lavabug]

Not all women have spidey senses. (You realize the spidey senses is a bit of humor, right?)

I wasn't sure how serious you were being, but the idea of feminine 6th sense is one I find many people do take very seriously (more than horoscopes).

 

[WannabeNewton]

If unimaginably beautiful women only married rich men, then why is evo married to me? BOOM CHECK AND MATE

 

[micromass]

Because they grew up around these types of people and is all they can find or feel they are worthy of.

Is this your personal opinion?? I would be very interested if there was some qualified research to answer this question.

 

[micromass]

If women only married rich men, then why is evo married to me? BOOM CHECK AND MATE

Let's use logic on this one:

Woman $\wedge$ married $\Rightarrow$ man is rich.

You are not rich, so the implication fails. So either you are married (which you are) or evo is not a woman. This proves conclusively that evo's gender is not what we thought it was.

 

[George Jones]

Really? Because all the good-looking women who I know have tall, handsome boyfriends or husbands. With of course the exception of ugly rich guys, but we all know that money is the great equalizer for everything in life.

So, my wife is not good-looking. The (equivalent) contrapositive of

good-looking married woman --> tall handsome husband

is

not tall handsome husband --> not good-looking married woman

I am 5'5" and my wife thinks that my nose is too large and too crooked for me to be handsome.

[edit]Didn't see micromass's logical analysis until after I posted.[/edit]

 

[Bacle2]

Because they grew up around these types of people and is all they can find or feel they are worthy of.

Where did you get this data? Please post it.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/marriage-is-for-rich-people/

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/jobs/posts/2012/02/03-jobs-greenstone-looney

See the subsection "Income , Marriage Rates and Men"

 

[micromass]

So, my wife is not good-looking.

If I get $100 from you, then your wife will never know (from me) that you said this.

 

[Bacle2]

I wasn't sure how serious you were being, but the idea of feminine 6th sense is one I find many people do take very seriously (more than horoscopes).

Only women born in Pisces with Leo rising have good spidey senses. (My psychic told me.)

 

[Evo]

Is this your personal opinion?? I would be very interested if there was some qualified research to answer this question.

Yes, it's my own opinion, sorry. That doesn't mean that females from good homes can't be stupid or make bad choices, but it is much easier for a girl that grew up in a bad area/situation to feel that she doesn't deserve or can do better. They grew up accepting it. I see that around here, there are poor small towns around here and those kids tend to stay and marry within their own group (of course there are always exceptions), the girls that grow up in the "gang" areas stay and marry there. I guess looking at years of census records would show if what I've observed is mostly true or false.

 

[Lavabug]

A general statement about prosperous people getting married more and having more children than the poor and middle class is not hard to believe in the 1st world (probably the other way around in the 3rd world), and is a very real statistic in my country (Spain).

The ever-decreasing natality-rate in my land is in the news every other day and correlates well with the disappearance of the middle class and widening of the rich-poor gap.

Particularizing the idea to males and females is harder, but historically men are always expected to be the prime breadwinner. Any man who doesn't make significantly more than his potential partners is deemed unsuccessful and less of a man, undesirable to women unless they are poorer than he is. Men also have to put up with unfair gender roles.

 

[George Jones]

Men also have to put up with unfair gender roles.

In general, I think women face women discrimination, but I think this is correct for some things. For example,

If I get $100 from you, then your wife will never know (from me) that you said this.

It is okay for my wife to talk in public about my large, crooked nose, but, in public, if I say ...

 

[micromass]

Yes, it's my own opinion, sorry. That doesn't mean that females from good homes can't be stupid or make bad choices, but it is much easier for a girl that grew up in a bad area/situation to feel that she doesn't deserve or can do better. They grew up accepting it. I see that around here, there are poor small towns around here and those kids tend to stay and marry within their own group (of course there are always exceptions), the girls that grow up in the "gang" areas stay and marry there. I guess looking at years of census records would show if what I've observed is mostly true or false.

Makes sense. I think your right about what you say, but I was just interested in some formal research on the subject.

 

[Evo]

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/marriage-is-for-rich-people/

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/jobs/posts/2012/02/03-jobs-greenstone-looney

See the subsection "Income , Marriage Rates and Men"

Thanks, interesting, a quick google seems to place the outcome on the extremely low marriage rate among blacks, with some reports claiming as much as 70% unmarried.

Here is just a sample article.

http://www.economist.com/news/unite...nd-its-out-wedlock-birth-rate-soaring-fraying

 

[Bacle2]

Thanks, interesting, a quick google seems to place the outcome on the extremely low marriage rate among blacks, with some reports claiming as much as 70% unmarried.

Here is just a sample article.

http://www.economist.com/news/unite...nd-its-out-wedlock-birth-rate-soaring-fraying

Charles Murray ( of "Bell Curve" fame/infamy) attributes it to "post-modernism" of sorts, in his latest book, claiming that (surprise, given his conservatism) it results from an overall loss/abandonment of traditional values ( values which, he says, have not been abandoned by the richest) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_Apart:_The_State_of_White_America,_1960–2010

or:

http://www.booktv.org/Program/13161/quotComing+Apart+The+State+of+White+America+19602010quot.aspx

 

[jim hardy]

So , what is it then with all the (very many) women who date, or are attracted-to, convicts--convicted murderes, rapists even?

Those are what I called 'the unfortunate ones. '
Something attracts them toward destructive people.
Perhaps a feeling of need to rescue, or the behavior is reminiscent of a parent, or low self worth, or just easy pickin's, or self flagellation, who knows?

Have you never said to yourself "I should have listened to that little voice inside" ?

But that's behavioral science not physics. Melodie Beattie and Marianne Williamson are two popular authors in that field.
Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it in PF. There are plenty of psychology forums out there .

 

[Evo]

So either you are married (which you are) or evo is not a woman. This proves conclusively that evo's gender is not what we thought it was.

I thought this was a secret between the two of us.

P.S. don't tell WBN! He thinks I've just had a really bad headache. Besides, you keep him too busy with math.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Perhaps I am biased, but I happen to think appearing insecure/not walking about with one's chest and chin high or similar confidence-exuding body language doesn't say anything about their suitability as a long-term partner. Anyone can train themselves to strut or maintain eye contact. I can think of many reasons for this appearance, but none of them are a direct impediment for being a caring partner or responsible father, which is what a lot of older frustrated single women complain about not being able to find. Like Ivan says, their 6th sense hasn't helped them much if more than half of the time they make partner choices they regret. Don't judge a book by its cover.

If it is true that being insecure actually says nothing about someone's suitability it is moot because women are attracted to an overall confidence/ lack of insecurity. Jim's post said:

I have come to believe women are equipped with a sixth sense.
Women can detect pretense, psychological barriers, and even self deception as if they were scents.

It doesn't say they have a sense for long term compatibility. Ivan is misinterpreting the function of the so called "6th sense".

Observant men also have a 6th sense in detecting spoiled women with apparent entitlement issues/unreasonable expectations. Many may get the idea (erroneously at times, but rarely in my experience) that some of them think they're too good to give them a minute of their time.

Men have all the "6th senses" women do, but more men tend to ignore them than not. However, what you describe here is not a "6th sense", rather it's what I've heard called "distain for what you cannot have", or "sour grapes". The fox in the fable could not reach the grapes so he decided they must be sour, and he wouldn't want them anyway.

 

[Astronuc]

So , what is it then with all the (very many) women who date, or are attracted-to, convicts--convicted murderes, rapists even?

Some have been exploring this.

The seemingly bizarre idea of crushing on Tsarnaev, or any accused killer, though, is actually not so surprising, experts told Yahoo! Shine.

“It’s not that he’s a bomb suspect, it’s that he’s notorious,” Sheila Isenberg, author of “Women Who Love Men Who Kill,” explained. The hope with such women, she added, is that they’ll somehow be able to visit him and then get their 15 minutes of fame if they latch onto his—similar to those who fall in love with convicted criminals on death row. “A lot are going to say, ‘I just want to make sure he gets a fair trial,’” she said, “but that’s really window dressing for their inherent need to get famous themselves.”
. . . .

http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-livi...v-s-disturbing-female-fan-club-191627312.html

It seems to stem from insecurity and lack of self-worth or low self-esteem.

 

[Lavabug]

Men have all the "6th senses" women do, but more men tend to ignore them than not. However, what you describe here is not a "6th sense", rather it's what I've heard called "distain for what you cannot have", or "sour grapes". The fox in the fable could not reach the grapes so he decided they must be sour, and he wouldn't want them anyway.

That's a pretty sinister interpretation, but maybe there is some truth to it for some of the more bitter males. I really want a partner, but I can't get one. That doesn't mean I call everyone who rejects me an entitled spoiled b*tch or similar, just saying that males probably shouldn't be spending time on those that at first glance wouldn't realistically entertain a relationship with them.

Often IME, they make the right judgement. If they don't feel they're good enough to be desirable to them from the get-go, they're probably right. No amount of pickup artist psychology is going to change that. Suitability as a partner never enters the equation.

 

[zoobyshoe]

More from Astronuc's link:

“Similar to the fascination teen girls have with vampire characters in movies and books, dark characters are a way to forge a separate identity and to defiantly (or rebelliously) declare oneself as independent of authority figures,” she noted. “Some of this is normal teen development, but being drawn to a criminal is a dysfunctional way to forge independence.”

She added that girls who are hyper-socialized “toward caring about the feelings of others to the expense of their own are more easily drawn to relationships with dysfunctional or even sociopathic men,” and have difficulty seeing that certain men are simply unhealthy.

 

[Solkar]

Have men been priced out of the dating market?

If I still were a (RL-)"dating market" participant I would consider discussing questions like this in spring a waste of time - there are public pools, street cafes etc open, and last not least supermarkets(!), where one can practice instead of hypothesizing.
And - most amazingly - there is even real life in public transports aside of dating "apps" people spend their time playing with while commuting.

 

[dirk_mec1]

You're right men spend their time too long overthinking gaming while they should go out in the real world and practive however it is not that simple: the fear of approach and fear of rejection are emotions which can be overwhelming when it comes to dating.

This blocks most men getting to where they want with women. In addition, these fears aren't easily to overcome. Aks yourself how many times you've seen a guy approaching a women in public and seducing her? I rarely have seen it.

 

[DiracPool]

The reality is that women want a guy "that has something going on." Get it?


I've been trying to pick up stray women for 20 years, that's my conclusion. I really should charge you guys for this advise.

 

[Jamin2112]

The reality is that women want a guy "that has something going on." Get it?

not sure what you mean

 

[MarneMath]

You're right men spend their time too long overthinking gaming while they should go out in the real world and practive however it is not that simple: the fear of approach and fear of rejection are emotions which can be overwhelming when it comes to dating.

This blocks most men getting to where they want with women. In addition, these fears aren't easily to overcome. Aks yourself how many times you've seen a guy approaching a women in public and seducing her? I rarely have seen it.

I can understand that approaching random women in a public place is scary and perhaps overwhelming, but it's exactly how I met my wife. If you're not willing to take the risk, then don't complain but not having success. It's as simple as that.

 

[DiracPool]

I can understand that approaching random women in a public place is scary and perhaps overwhelming, but it's exactly how I met my wife. If you're not willing to take the risk, then don't complain but not having success. It's as simple as that.

What's not to get? Women want a guy that has something going on...

What is that? Doesn't matter, as long as it's "going on"

 

[dirk_mec1]

I can understand that approaching random women in a public place is scary and perhaps overwhelming, but it's exactly how I met my wife. If you're not willing to take the risk, then don't complain but not having success. It's as simple as that.

Yes, you're right I agree with you but I'm sure you'll also understand that most guys just do not do it. See my earlier post where I posed the question how many of you actually see somebody do it. Like I said earlier it is not so easy to deal with the fears of approach and rejection.

Thus I don't think men are priced out of the dating market it's just two important fears making the succes impossible.

 

[reenmachine]

It's sad how many guys think you need money to date women.

I won't deny that some women are looking for a guy with money , but very few of them are actually worth it.

There's a very long list of qualities and attributes that can charm women.It depends what the woman in question is looking for.

 

[Office_Shredder]

We can flip the tagline around and make it sound positive. "Women are no longer priced out of the not-dating game"

 

[Jamin2112]

It's sad how many guys think you need money to date women.

I won't deny that some women are looking for a guy with money , but very few of them are actually worth it.

There's a very long list of qualities and attributes that can charm women.It depends what the woman in question is looking for.

I'm not saying that you have to be a millionaire to attract hot women, but the fact is that any hot woman has enough options that she can at least marry an anesthesiologist who makes $300k/yr.

 

[Evo]

I'm not saying that you have to be a millionaire to attract hot women, but the fact is that any hot woman has enough options that she can at least marry an anesthesiologist who makes $300k/yr.

But a lot of "hot women" are looking for a normal guy and don't consider money because they make a lot of money. It not like it was 40 years ago where women needed money. Only needy women look for men as a source of income. And you don't want a needy woman.

 

[Jamin2112]

But a lot of "hot women" are looking for a normal guy and don't consider money because they make a lot of money.

A lot?

 

[reenmachine]

I'm not saying that you have to be a millionaire to attract hot women, but the fact is that any hot woman has enough options that she can at least marry an anesthesiologist who makes $300k/yr.

Sometimes love doesn't work that way.It's THAT girl that you like more than all others.It's the same for women with men.That girl or that guy might not make 300k a year.

People that date someone only because of money have no clue what they are doing and what they really want.I refuse to believe this is healthy behavior , unless you happen to love that rich guy/girl.

You actually sleep with the person everyday , that's something I wouldn't do for any amount of money unless I really liked the girl.

 

[MarneMath]

I'm not saying that you have to be a millionaire to attract hot women, but the fact is that any hot woman has enough options that she can at least marry an anesthesiologist who makes $300k/yr.

A woman may have options, but doesn't mean that she has to pick an option based on what you think is important. Some people on this forum have seen a picture of my wife and probably rate her as rather attractive. When I met her, she was dating a guy who drove a BMW 7 series, and probably made more in a year than I would in 5. At the time, I was a lowly sergeant in the Army. I had no plans to change that. Yet, she left the life of the rich and famous in NYC to live with me in the oh-so-awesome Savannah Georgia (actually an hour south of Savannah.)

In the end, if you can make a girl happy, you'll find how quickly money drops in importance. I may never be able to buy my wife everything she ever dreamed of, but I did make ever piece of furniture in our house and to her the effort I put into try to get her to smile is worth more than that BMW that guy had.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I need to find a man with a BMW. Maybe I can get my college tuition paid off and also get the new xbox.

 

[Evo]

A lot?

Six figures and up.

 

[Evo]

A woman may have options, but doesn't mean that she has to pick an option based on what you think is important. Some people on this forum have seen a picture of my wife and probably rate her as rather attractive. When I met her, she was dating a guy who drove a BMW 7 series, and probably made more in a year than I would in 5. At the time, I was a lowly sergeant in the Army. I had no plans to change that. Yet, she left the life of the rich and famous in NYC to live with me in the oh-so-awesome Savannah Georgia (actually an hour south of Savannah.)

In the end, if you can make a girl happy, you'll find how quickly money drops in importance. I may never be able to buy my wife everything she ever dreamed of, but I did make ever piece of furniture in our house and to her the effort I put into try to get her to smile is worth more than that BMW that guy had.

You come across here as having a great personality, slow to anger, you use your brains. Women like that,

 

[DiracPool]

I need to find a man with a BMW. Maybe I can get my college tuition paid off and also get the new xbox.

Is that a proposition, wbn?

 

[WannabeNewton]

Is that a proposition, wbn?

If you have a BMW then I'm ready for you to get on your knees.

 

[DiracPool]

If you have a BMW then I'm ready for you to get on your knees.

Alright, sorry I encouraged this, Can we get back to the science?

 

[DiracPool]

You beast. I apologize, I couldn't resist.

 

[Office_Shredder]

If you have a BMW then I'm ready for you to get on your knees.

Ummmm I think the usual arrangement in this type of scenario has a different person getting on their knees

 

[DiracPool]

Ummmm I think the usual arrangement in this type of scenario has a different person getting on their knees

That's what I love about PF, people are so smart here

 

[WannabeNewton]

Ummmm I think the usual arrangement in this type of scenario has a different person getting on their knees

Or does it? DUN DUN DUUUN

 

[zoobyshoe]

A woman may have options, but doesn't mean that she has to pick an option based on what you think is important. Some people on this forum have seen a picture of my wife and probably rate her as rather attractive. When I met her, she was dating a guy who drove a BMW 7 series, and probably made more in a year than I would in 5. At the time, I was a lowly sergeant in the Army. I had no plans to change that. Yet, she left the life of the rich and famous in NYC to live with me in the oh-so-awesome Savannah Georgia (actually an hour south of Savannah.)

In the end, if you can make a girl happy, you'll find how quickly money drops in importance. I may never be able to buy my wife everything she ever dreamed of, but I did make ever piece of furniture in our house and to her the effort I put into try to get her to smile is worth more than that BMW that guy had.

A good story and one people here should pay attention to.

I see too many guys posting here with the certainty they're screwed vis a vis women because of some ridiculous preconception they've bought into about what all women want. I've personally broken all those barriers. I've had girlfriends taller than me, richer than me, better looking than me. Whatever criteria women say they have is always tentative, subject to change depending on actual overall "chemistry".