Help me through a simple SR problem

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter adimare
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Sr
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a special relativity (SR) problem involving the transformation of time and space coordinates between different reference frames. Participants explore the mathematical derivation of the relationship between time and space separations of events occurring in a laboratory frame and a moving rocket frame.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a problem involving two events with time separation but no spatial separation in the laboratory frame, seeking to prove a relationship in the rocket frame moving with a speed characterized by \(\beta\).
  • Another participant suggests that the last equation presented by the first participant can lead to the desired result by factoring out \(dt'^2\) and solving for \(dx'/dt'\).
  • The original poster expresses frustration over their inability to derive the expected relationship, questioning whether it is a lack of mathematical skill or a misapplication of equations.
  • A later reply reiterates the original poster's confusion regarding the validity of their derived equation when substituting \(\frac{dx'}{dt'} = -\beta\).
  • One participant provides a step-by-step manipulation of the equations, ultimately arriving at the conclusion that \(\frac{dx'}{dt'} = -\beta\) holds true, indicating a resolution to their earlier confusion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion reflects a mix of confusion and clarification, with some participants agreeing on the mathematical steps leading to the conclusion, while the original poster initially expresses uncertainty about their understanding. The final steps provided by one participant suggest a resolution to the original poster's concerns, but the overall discussion does not reach a consensus on the initial confusion.

Contextual Notes

Participants' discussions involve various mathematical manipulations and assumptions about the Lorentz transformation, but there are unresolved aspects regarding the clarity of the initial problem setup and the derivation process.

adimare
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
I'm reading Wheeler's spacetime physics and have been doing some newbie SR problems.
I thought up what shouldd be an extremely simple problem but am having trouble with the math, I'm sure one of you guys can probably help me out with it.

Events A and B occur with a time separation in the laboratory frame but no space separation, I thought it'd be easy to prove that in a rocket frame moving with a [tex]\beta[/tex] speed to the right relative to the laboratory frame the space separation divided by the time separation of the events would be [tex]-\beta[/tex] (that is [tex]dx'/dt'=-\beta[/tex])

[tex]dt^2-dx^2 = dt'^2-dx'^2[/tex]

Since the events occur in the same place in the laboratory frame
[tex]dt^2 = dt'^2-dx'^2[/tex]


After Lorentz transformation
[tex]( \frac{dt' + dx'\beta} { \sqrt{1-\beta^2}} )^2 = dt'^2-dx'^2[/tex]

However, I've been unable to derive this properly, is it just lack of math skills or did I set the equations inproperly? Any help is appreciated.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Your last equation does lead to your desired result. First factor out [itex]dt'^2[/itex] from both sides of the last equation, and then solve for [itex]dx'/dt'[/itex].
 
I must suck at this, so far I have
[tex]( \frac{dt' + dx'\beta} { \sqrt{1-\beta^2}} )^2 = dt'^2-dx'^2[/tex]


[tex]\frac{(dt' + dx'\beta)^2} {1-\beta^2} = dt'^2-dx'^2[/tex]


[tex](dt' + dx'\beta)^2 = (dt'^2-dx'^2) (1-\beta^2)[/tex]


[tex]dt'^2 + 2dt'dx'\beta + dx'^2\beta^2 = dt'^2 - dt'^2\beta^2 -dx'^2 +dx'^2\beta^2[/tex]


[tex]2dt'dx'\beta = -dt'^2\beta^2 -dx'^2[/tex]


[tex]dx'^2 + dt'^2\beta^2 + 2dt'dx'\beta = 0[/tex]


This does not seem to hold up when [tex]\frac{dx'}{dt'} = -\beta[/tex]

Where am I screwing up?
 
I posted this once already and deleted it because I incorrectly thought I had made a mistake, and the forum won't let me post a duplicate, so I had to add this pointless sentence.

adimare said:
Where am I screwing up?

Here:
adimare said:
This does not seem to hold up when [tex]\frac{dx'}{dt'} = -\beta[/tex]
 
[tex]dx'^2 + 2dt'dx'\beta + dt'^2\beta^2 = 0[/tex]

[tex]a = dt'\beta[/tex]

thus
[tex]dx'^2 + 2adx' + a^2 = 0[/tex]

[tex](dx' + a)^2 = 0[/tex]

[tex]dx' + a = 0[/tex]

[tex]dx' = -a[/tex]

[tex]dx' = -dt'\beta[/tex]

[tex]dx'/dt' = -\beta[/tex]

Thanks everyone, I will proceed and slap myself in the head so you won't have to
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 29 ·
Replies
29
Views
3K
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
4K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 41 ·
2
Replies
41
Views
4K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
4K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
1K