Hijacking a John Varley misdirection

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The discussion centers on the concept of the generation ship "Gaea" from John Varley's work, with participants debating its size and implications for life aboard. Gaea is described as potentially the largest ship in sci-fi, comparable to the size of the United States, which raises questions about its function as a self-sufficient colony rather than a traditional ship. Participants argue that referring to it as a "generation ship" misrepresents its nature, suggesting it should be viewed as an island city-state with its own culture and governance. The conversation also explores the challenges of maintaining a stable society over generations and the potential for future missions to colonize planets. Ultimately, the discussion emphasizes the need for a nuanced understanding of such constructs in science fiction narratives.
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At the beginning of Titan the astronauts and the folks back on Earth agree that "Themis" fits the profile of generation ship.

Now I usually abhor the idea of a generation ship,it means perhaps millions of lives lived in a tin can. However, the dimensions of Gaea are large enough to like life interesting even for the majority adventurous persons. If you're familiar with Gaea's dimensions, do you agree?

Good image of Gaea with size comparisons.

The premise will that the people in the control hub, the center of the ship, have decided that they don't want to end the trip as it means they'd have to give up their privileged positions. The ship's computers, without the knowledge of the Control faction, recruit people from the wheel to get to the hub and help the ship complete its mission.

Well, most of the ship's computers, that is.
 
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Noisy Rhysling said:
Good image of Gaea with size comparisons.
The first image encountered on that site makes Gaea look comparable to Saturn in size!
I had to dig to find this pic:

gaea_earth_moon.jpg
 
Gaea is not only big enough to be a genship, it's pretty much the biggest ship in the sci-fi universe.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Gaea is not only big enough to be a genship, it's pretty much the biggest ship in the sci-fi universe.
Yep, and that's why I like the design.
 
And I have to keep reminding myself that all the great trilogies came in three.

:wink:
 
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Noisy Rhysling said:
And I have to keep reminding myself that all the great trilogies came in three.

:wink:
Except Douglas Adams', which is a trilogy in five parts.:woot:
 
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DaveC426913 said:
Except Douglas Adams', which is a trilogy in five parts.:woot:
Jack L. Chalker said a trilogy is the sum of the parts.
 
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Noisy Rhysling said:
Now I usually abhor the idea of a generation ship,it means perhaps millions of lives lived in a tin can. However, the dimensions of Gaea are large enough to like life interesting even for the majority adventurous persons. If you're familiar with Gaea's dimensions, do you agree?

Given that the ship's radial diameter easily appears to be as large as the United States, I could see this being plausible. The internal surface is roughly a quarter as deep as the diameter, so its surface area looks to be around the same as the U.S.'s, perhaps a bit more.
 
I hate the term generation ship. Ship. It entirely puts one in the wrong frame of mind for thinking about and discussing these constructs. "Ship" implies a specialised vehicle with a command structure, crew and mission set. A generation ship would be much better thought of as an island city-state. A closed ecosystem and closed economy with its own culture, political institutions and traditions. It's not an aircraft carrier in space with some plants, it's a rolled up small nation.
 
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Drakkith said:
Given that the ship's radial diameter easily appears to be as large as the United States, I could see this being plausible. The internal surface is roughly a quarter as deep as the diameter, so its surface area looks to be around the same as the U.S.'s, perhaps a bit more.
The "floor" of the wheel is 1,300 kilometers across and is flat. I'll get back to you with the circumference.
 
  • #11
Ryan_m_b said:
I hate the term generation ship. Ship. It entirely puts one in the wrong frame of mind for thinking about and discussing these constructs. "Ship" implies a specialised vehicle with a command structure, crew and mission set. A generation ship would be much better thought of as an island city-state. A closed ecosystem and closed economy with its own culture, political institutions and traditions. It's not an aircraft carrier in space with some plants, it's a rolled up small nation.
Good image, but even small nations have a command structure. And this one sails the "wine dark seas" of space. That's the difference between Gaea and my ship, she's not going anywhere. The gen ship will become the support ship for the new colony, jump starting the new civilization by providing a technological boost straight into the 22nd century. The farms will have electricity for light, heat, tractors, etc. The children will be taught via remote schooling and the universities will have a full staff of trained people.

Oh, and to avoid the "loss of focus" trap every one will get to view the ship from the outside, so they know it's a vessel, not an entire and complete world like they'll be reading about in their classes.

And it's wee babe of a story right now. I'm getting input about a trilogy, including the "final stop" where the ship is no longer needed to support the colony. What shall we do with this perfectly good space ship?
 
  • #12
Noisy Rhysling said:
The "floor" of the wheel is 1,300 kilometers across and is flat. I'll get back to you with the circumference.

What part of the wheel is the "floor"?
 
  • #13
Noisy Rhysling said:
What shall we do with this perfectly good space ship?

That's a good question. At that size, the vessel represents an absolutely enormous amount of materials, including metals, dirt, plastics, etc. It would probably take generations just to disassemble it.
 
  • #14
Drakkith said:
What part of the wheel is the "floor"?
The inside of the part that would be the tread on a auto tyre.
 
  • #15
Drakkith said:
That's a good question. At that size, the vessel represents an absolutely enormous amount of materials, including metals, dirt, plastics, etc. It would probably take generations just to disassemble it.
And if the crew kept it in good working order another adventure could await those who don't find "dirtside" attractive.
 
  • #16
DaveC426913 said:
Gaea is not only big enough to be a genship, it's pretty much the biggest ship in the sci-fi universe.
The flat outside part is 1,300 kilometers across, wider than the ID4 mothership was long.

skin1.jpg
 
  • #17
Noisy Rhysling said:
Good image, but even small nations have a command structure.

They have political systems, for the most part different to a military command structure. Nations that are run along autocratic lines are susceptible to violent revolution, if your aim is for a mobile habitat to survive a multi-century crossing between stars you're going to want a political system that won't lead to an environment collapsing conflict.

Noisy Rhysling said:
And this one sails the "wine dark seas" of space. That's the difference between Gaea and my ship, she's not going anywhere. The gen ship will become the support ship for the new colony, jump starting the new civilization by providing a technological boost straight into the 22nd century. The farms will have electricity for light, heat, tractors, etc. The children will be taught via remote schooling and the universities will have a full staff of trained people.

This is another good example of why "ship" is a bad concept to apply to these things. It's not a support for a colony, it is a colony. It's a self sufficient economic and ecological island. It can send out colony missions itself but it doesn't make sense to consider it as a colony mission.

Noisy Rhysling said:
Oh, and to avoid the "loss of focus" trap every one will get to view the ship from the outside, so they know it's a vessel, not an entire and complete world like they'll be reading about in their classes.

I don't quite get what you mean here, why would children growing up on this giant edifice feel any particular desire for planet life? In many ways this is a complete world already. Seems like an interesting thing to explore would be how the founders/builders have this idea that the habitat is a seed to colonise planets and the generations born upon it would care not a whit about that.
 
  • #18
I don't think I said there was a military command structure, just a command structure. It's called "government". The remainder of your comments nicely illustrate the issues on such a ship.
 
  • #19
Not sure if this is a language localisation thing but "command structure" is not a synonym for government. A command structure is a one way heirachy with orders flowing from the top to the bottom. Unless you're talking about an autocracy political institutions are more complex.
 
  • #20
Ryan_m_b said:
Not sure if this is a language localisation thing but "command structure" is not a synonym for government. A command structure is a one way heirachy with orders flowing from the top to the bottom. Unless you're talking about an autocracy political institutions are more complex.
Any government is a command structure.
 
  • #21
Noisy Rhysling said:
Any government is a command structure.
What's your definition of command structure?
 
  • #22
Ryan_m_b said:
What's your definition of command structure?
A hierarchical structure of command over a given unit, organization or entity. Note that there's no mention of "military" in that. State governments are top-down from the Governor, the US is top-down from the President, etc. Don't be thrown by the term "command", despite reflexes to equate it to purely military entities it's much broader than that. People just don't feel comfortable with it because they don't want to be sent on a suicide mission to attack the US Fleet anchored at Pearl Harbor.
 
  • #23
It's a ship because, ultimately, it goes somewhere.

If not treated as a moving vessel, it could just as easily end up falling into a star - or someone else's backyard who might have other plans for it.

So yeah, ship first, home second.
 
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  • #24
One thing that could be explored in this work is storage of humans. Practical experience at sailing ships (powered and unpowered) is priceless. Unless they have a way to transfer knowledge from one person to another (and the reflexes and gut instincts that come years at sea) they will have to learn it all over again when they get to the next world with oceans. But if they bring people with those skills along in some kind of stasis then they would have a running start on this. The builders might decide to store those people in the walls of the spokes, like Varley's "angels".
 
  • #25
I suspect a ship of this size would require some kind of energy-to-matter conversion process. If that can be "fine tuned" to produce the exact material desire the construction of "Big Wheel 1" (BW1) would be expedited. The first elements I would produce with such a system would be vibranium, unobtainium, and handwavium. :wink:

(Thinking out loud for the benefit of a lurker.)
 

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