How can a turbo-powered fan potentially lead to perpetual motion?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of using a turbo-powered fan to potentially achieve perpetual motion through the electrolysis of water for hydrogen production. Participants explore the feasibility of high current electrolysis systems, the energy dynamics involved, and the theoretical implications of such a system in automotive applications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses interest in creating a high-current electrolysis device to rapidly produce hydrogen from water, suggesting a need for currents between 20,000 to 40,000 amperes.
  • Another participant questions the practicality of achieving such high currents, citing limitations in available electrical service and the inefficiency of the proposed system.
  • Some participants highlight the energy loss involved in converting gasoline to hydrogen, arguing that the process would not yield a net gain in energy.
  • A participant proposes a system where hydrogen is produced on demand while the vehicle runs, but others challenge the viability of this concept, suggesting it resembles a perpetual motion machine.
  • Several participants reflect on the allure of perpetual motion concepts, discussing the blurred lines between renewable energy and perpetual motion claims.
  • One participant describes a hypothetical system involving a fan and turbochargers, questioning the source of energy for the turbos and suggesting it could lead to perpetual motion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the feasibility of achieving perpetual motion through the proposed systems. While some explore the theoretical possibilities, others assert that the energy dynamics involved would not support such a concept.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the efficiency of electrolysis, the electrical requirements for high current systems, and the overall energy balance of the proposed hydrogen production methods.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to individuals exploring alternative energy systems, automotive engineering, and the theoretical implications of perpetual motion concepts.

geordy
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Hi i am new to this but i have a question, I am fascinated by exploiting water and removing the hydrogen from the water, and to my understanding i need to advance in higher current to make it worth while to break the water up at a higher and much faster rate, is it hard to make a device that will pump out if i am correct in saying this, but at a rate of 20 - 40,000 amperes. I am after something with extremely high current. Can any of you kind lads give me a word of opinion or advice in what i should do? Cheers Guys..
 
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I don't know much about electrolysis but I can tell you that what you are asking for is a bit much. Where I live the largest single phase service one can get on 240 volt service is 50 KVA. Do the math, that is 208.33 amps at 240 volts. So, what type of voltage do you need between the electrodes in the electrolysis tank? (Again, don't know much about it.) If you were to figure 100% efficiency of a power supply (which you won't in the real world) you will only have 1.25 available at the tank electrodes if you want to be able to source 40,000 amps. 1.25 volts is never going to be able to push 40,000 amps through water. Of course, I haven't any idea what type of conductors you will need to be able to carry 40,000 amps either.
 
geordy said:
Hi i am new to this but i have a question, I am fascinated by exploiting water and removing the hydrogen from the water, and to my understanding i need to advance in higher current to make it worth while to break the water up at a higher and much faster rate, is it hard to make a device that will pump out if i am correct in saying this, but at a rate of 20 - 40,000 amperes. I am after something with extremely high current. Can any of you kind lads give me a word of opinion or advice in what i should do? Cheers Guys..
Unless you're fed up with life, your first electronics project should probably not involve 40000 amperes. Stay safe :)
 
well my aim is break up water via an energy source such as an engine, and i need an on demand system that will rapidly break down the water as you accelerate and in turn make fuel on demand with the highest and safest output possible of current.
 
geordy said:
well my aim is break up water via an energy source such as an engine, and i need an on demand system that will rapidly break down the water as you accelerate and in turn make fuel on demand with the highest and safest output possible of current.

So you're going to burn gasoline to make hydrogen for fuel? You understand that you are losing net fuel energy by doing that, right? Still want to do it? :wink:
 
I want to be able to sit in the car wait a couple of seconds and let the electrodes do its work by building up hydrogen in the tank, then when there is sufficient amount of hydrogen gas to run through to the fuel lines then into the cylinders the car will run and keep producing hydrogen on demand, i have read some where that this is quite possible, thus waiting for the fuel to build up before starting the motor. My theory is i need a high current flowing system that will take minimal charge from my existing battery to produce the hydrogen first of all then keep the charge working while the engine is running, I do not want to use petroleum fuel/gas to have any play in this. Cheers.
 
geordy said:
I want to be able to sit in the car wait a couple of seconds and let the electrodes do its work by building up hydrogen in the tank, then when there is sufficient amount of hydrogen gas to run through to the fuel lines then into the cylinders the car will run and keep producing hydrogen on demand, i have read some where that this is quite possible, thus waiting for the fuel to build up before starting the motor. My theory is i need a high current flowing system that will take minimal charge from my existing battery to produce the hydrogen first of all then keep the charge working while the engine is running, I do not want to use petroleum fuel/gas to have any play in this. Cheers.

It sounds like you are wanting to have a perpetual motion machine/motor? Not possible.

You would use gas to make some hydrogen, run on hydrogen for a bit while making less and less hydrogen as you use up the initial bit, and run dry of hydrogen. Then use gas again to make some hydrogen, and the cycle continues. All the while you use up gas at a faster rate than if you just ran the car on gas.

There is no free energy. It takes energy (from gas) to run the engine, and it take energy (from the hydrogen) to run the engine and make more hydrogen. You can't get out more energy than the initial energy contained in the tank of gas to start with. And adding extra process steps (each process step is less than 100% efficient, by a lot), just makes you burn gas quicker.
 
It's really strange that anyone with an enquiring mind is inexorably attracted to some kind of perpetual motion machine. I think we all need to consider it once before we reject it, having had the basics explained to us. I certainly did - and my Grandfather.
I guess it's so attractive and there's always a chance that "I'm the only person to have thought of it"
The ultimate 'free lunch'.
 
There are plenty of 'free lunches' depending on your perspective. Wind and solar come to mind. But those are not truly perpetual in the sense that a lot of the so-called perpetual motion machines claim to be. So I think what happens is that the line between renewable and perpetual gets blurred.
 
  • #10
Not so much 'free' as 'good value' in most cases I think.
Having seen many wind turbines stationary for long periods of time, I wonder how 'free' their energy has proved to be, in some cases. Great monuments for politicians maybe but, in the long term, who knows?
The 'freest free energy' is really the energy you didn't use in the first place.
 
  • #11
Say you had a normal fan and you attached a type of differential to the fan square in the middle then that diff ran your back wheels. But what what's running the fan you may ask..
Say you had two turbines like turboes for the car that were sucking in air and blowing the air directly to the fan itself, one turbo placed near the the top of the fan amid to the left or right of the fan so it could push the fan and propel the fan in either clock wise or counter clock wise direction, the reason you can have this is so you can clutch the fan so it can turn the differential into reverse or forward motion without having to rotate the fan the opposite direction. What the secondary turbo does, is it sits to the other side of the fan at a lower point to the fan, propelling the fan faster as does the top the top fan on the other side of the fan pushing it just as fast as the air coming into the turboes.
So one is pushing and so is the other one turning the fan and turning the rear wheels. What I can't really grasp is where the energy is coming from to supply power to the turboes. If anyone can figure this one out as it runs on pure wind i think your pretty close to perpetual motion.. Please give me your thoughts on this, if you become a billionaire please think of me lol..
 
  • #12
geordy said:
Say you had a normal fan and you attached a type of differential to the fan square in the middle then that diff ran your back wheels. But what what's running the fan you may ask..
Say you had two turbines like turboes for the car that were sucking in air and blowing the air directly to the fan itself, one turbo placed near the the top of the fan amid to the left or right of the fan so it could push the fan and propel the fan in either clock wise or counter clock wise direction, the reason you can have this is so you can clutch the fan so it can turn the differential into reverse or forward motion without having to rotate the fan the opposite direction. What the secondary turbo does, is it sits to the other side of the fan at a lower point to the fan, propelling the fan faster as does the top the top fan on the other side of the fan pushing it just as fast as the air coming into the turboes.
So one is pushing and so is the other one turning the fan and turning the rear wheels. What I can't really grasp is where the energy is coming from to supply power to the turboes. If anyone can figure this one out as it runs on pure wind i think your pretty close to perpetual motion.. Please give me your thoughts on this, if you become a billionaire please think of me lol..

This is stupid. Google perpetual motion machines if you want to read more about them. They are a topic that we do not allow discussions of here on the PF.

Thread closed.
 

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