How Can an Infinite Universe Expand?

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the concept of an infinite universe and its expansion, addressing the apparent contradictions between infinite size and the presence of matter. Participants clarify that an infinite universe can indeed expand, as expansion refers to the increasing distance between objects rather than a change in the universe's overall size. The Hubble parameter, which describes the rate of expansion, is proportional to the distance between objects, as expressed in Hubble's Law. Furthermore, the universe's initial state at the Big Bang is debated, with consensus that it was infinitely dense but not necessarily finite in size.

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  • Understanding of general relativity (GR) and its implications for cosmology.
  • Familiarity with Hubble's Law and the Hubble parameter.
  • Basic knowledge of the Big Bang theory and cosmic evolution.
  • Concept of spatial expansion in cosmological contexts.
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  • #31
definition of infinite

–adjective 1. immeasurably[/B][/B] great: an infinite capacity for forgiveness.
2. indefinitely or exceedingly great: infinite sums of money.
3. unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time, etc.: the infinite nature of outer space.
4. unbounded or unlimited; boundless; endless: God's infinite mercy.
5. Mathematics. a. not finite.
b. (of a set) having elements that can be put into one-to-one correspondence with a subset that is not the given set.

–noun 6. something that is infinite.
7. Mathematics. an infinite quantity or magnitude.
8. the boundless regions of space.

fmichel said:
I sometimes read that we know that the universe is in expansion and that we don't know if the universe is finite or infinite. I have some difficulties to understand the notion of "infinite universe" and to see how an infinite universe could be in expansion.

Assume the universe is infinite.

Does it mean that the universe has an infinite size?
Does it mean that the quantities of matter and energie are infinite?
Therefore there are an infinite number of galaxies, stars...

How an universe with an infinite size could be in expansion?

Thanks in advance for any explanations, precisions...

Franck
 
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  • #32
Hmm. So we are on the verge of a pangenesis? If he universe started from a single point, and space time are unfolding from that moment, are you saying space and time were instantly infinite although matter may not yet fill that infinite possibility?

Going back to the front here is the universe was once a super dense single point what was it embedded in?

When we talk of the expansion of the universe are we not talking about a time evolving system of matter and energy. If the Big Bang came from a point is there not a place somewhere out thee were only the very oldest photons have managed to reach? Would'nt that be the boundary of the physical universe?

I have heard talk of theorems that say perhaps the universe simply popped up in some pangenesis type of exitation of the vacuum. Some of the people who like that one are religious, but I won't let that color my opinion on the matter.

It seems to me that the difficulty arises in trying to model a system which you admit you cannot understand or even concieve of it's embedding space. Useful intrinsic coordinates can be gotten but they cannot help you understand how the system relates to whatever might be beyond. And if there is nothing beyond, well that is a leap of faith. Logically it seems like a dead end to keep reaching for a GUT. I mean in light of the limitations of the human mind, the work of Godel and Chaitin, we cannot even be certain that a GUT is possible on our little island of knowledge. But please tell me more. Feed me Seymour!
 
  • #33
Playdo said:
Hmm. So we are on the verge of a pangenesis? If he universe started from a single point, and space time are unfolding from that moment, are you saying space and time were instantly infinite although matter may not yet fill that infinite possibility?

Going back to the front here is the universe was once a super dense single point what was it embedded in?

When we talk of the expansion of the universe are we not talking about a time evolving system of matter and energy. If the Big Bang came from a point is there not a place somewhere out thee were only the very oldest photons have managed to reach? Would'nt that be the boundary of the physical universe?

I have heard talk of theorems that say perhaps the universe simply popped up in some pangenesis type of exitation of the vacuum. Some of the people who like that one are religious, but I won't let that color my opinion on the matter.

You have the wrong picture, you imagine matter condensed in a point and then spreading out. That is not what the Big Bang is about. It's not the matter that spreads out in space, but space "stretching out".
And our observable universe came out from a very small region of space (but still not a point) but this says however nothing about how large the region was that started expanding (in theory it could be infinite).

The universe, wether we imagine it to be finite or infinite, has no boundary or edge.

There is a lot of work done on cosmological theories that emerge from vacuum states.
But first bring in mind that the vacuum we are in fact talking of is not just emptiness, far from! The vacuum, even in the deepest and remotest voids we know of, contains matter, energy, fields and particles.
Realy, one has to see vacuum as something filled with particles, energies, fields and so on, and not as something empty and devoid of matter/energy.

Second, there are at least two vacuum states, one with an energy density of zero and another with a field potential of zero. They are distiguishable states, often referred to as the "false" and "true" vacuum state.

The theories you might have heard about are about cosmic inflation.
Cosmic inflation is about a small patch of space in a "false" vacuum state embedded in a "true" vacuum. It acts in a peculiar way in that the force of gravity turns out to be repulsive instead of attractive, and causes the false vacuum bubble to rapidly expand in a very brief moment. During this rapid expansion (called 'inflation') the energy density of this expanding bubble remains the same, which is another curiosity of this vacuum state: the energy density can not change rapidly, yet the bubble itself grows enormous in size in a very brief instant.
At the end of inflation we then have a small sized bubble which has grown from the size of a proton to the size of a grapefruit almost instantanious, and which contains enormous amount of energy. This energy concent is released in the form of particles.
After the inflation ends the normal hot big bang scenario begins in which the hot dense and small bubble keeps expanding in a more modest rate and becomes larger, less dense and cooler, until the conditions are fit for (re)combining protons, neutrons and later on atoms.

There are a whole bunch of cosmic inflation scenarios. Some scenarios allow inflation to go on forever.

For more information, do a Google search on "cosmic inflation" "Alan Guth" or "Andrei Linde"
 
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  • #34
Since we can't get a satisfying answer to the above, then I ask some maybe simpler questions below,

1 Is there a possibility to capture the universe? or you guess or you hope or wish.Do we need to stand out of science in order to capture the universe?

2 Can you accept the universe is infinite, or can you accept it is finite then? In what sense? or which one do you prefer in your mind?

3 Do you think we people can know everything? If we have known everything, then what (or nothing) will happen, or the end of the world?

4 Is physics today in the danger of losing its way?

5 Is there a theory related to a zero ->finite->zero? Unless you accept this theory, ...

6 Is there a possibility for the world to be nonhomogeneous, and/or isotropic, and/or contnuous/discrete, or the world is periodic? If time is discrete, then what? Is there a "mirror thing" between current you and past you and future you?

7 Is there IFO ? or do you believe, guess etc there is? Is there a relation between "IFO theory" and "ghost theory".

8 Is there physical evidence for string theory, or its prediction indicates what kind of facts.

I am not an expert in this field. Don't take my questions seriously (they may not be logical).
 
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