rootone
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Are we there yet?
rootone said:Are we there yet?
No, I believe we are not. Members are still showing some difference in opinions. Some children are more inquisitive and peristant than are others. This could change as each gets older, maybe favorably in some, maybe less favorably in others.rootone said:Are we there yet?
Dr. Courtney said:In state level science fairs these past few years, it seems clear that kids are born BS artists. They are great at polishing turds and pretending to have done something important. Mrs. Dr. Courtney noted that as many times as science projects have claimed to cure cancer, it would be eradicated by now. Maybe 20% of the projects even demonstrate a proper application of the scientific method. And this is at the state level - these projects were award winners at the regional levels - none of the judges there caught the glaring errors and misapplication of the scientific method at the lower levels.
Wow! "Get down before you hurt yourself!"symbolipoint said:I'm watching now. Not can decide if this answers the question but it is an interesting talk.
He said the word, "institution". Maybe that is meaningful. Think of the child so curious as to crawl around under the house, and finds a few artifacts left behind by the construction workers who have long since gone on to other jobs. The child is not doing this exploring as part of any institution. Budding archaeologist or budding anthropologist? Maybe.
OmCheeto said:Are you familiar with the documentary series "7-Up"?
My takeaway from watching it, was that the "BS", was instilled by their parents.
All of these are applied by kids:Dr. Courtney said:It's a beginning that can be nurtured and directed, but a lot of ideas need to be added:
1) Logic and ideas need to be capable of following an orderly sequence of steps so that each observation is not its own law.
2) The idea of rejecting hypotheses based on controlled, repeatable experiments is essential
3) In the physical sciences (and of growing importance in biology), careful, quantitative predictions and experiments are essential. Chemistry and physics are NOT about qualitative predictions and observations. Both disciplines were not really born until quantitative models were formed and tested in quantitative experiments.
4) The notions of independent and dependent variables are key.
jack action said:The difference between a kid and a physicist is experience.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_scienceDr. Courtney said:If this were true, we'd have had a lot more physicists before Bacon, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_history_of_scientific_methodDr. Courtney said:If humans were born with it, we'd have had it thousands of years earlier.
So you are saying that alchemists were not scientists because they were on the wrong path, but chemists - who based their work on alchemy - were scientists because they actually found the right hypothesis once that all the bad ones were eliminated?Dr. Courtney said:If this were true, we'd have had a lot more physicists before Bacon, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton.
The scientific method was something developed by mankind, not something humans are born with. If humans were born with it, we'd have had it thousands of years earlier.
Dr. Courtney said:3) In the physical sciences (and of growing importance in biology), careful, quantitative predictions and experiments are essential. Chemistry and physics are NOT about qualitative predictions and observations. Both disciplines were not really born until quantitative models were formed and tested in quantitative experiments.
As the person who started this thread, I think you are the one missing the point. If you haven't done it yet, you should listen to the video in post #1.Dr. Courtney said:Multiple respondents are missing the importance of quantitative predictions and measurements in the physical sciences.
jack action said:It's about adults killing the curiosity in kids, which is where all scientific interest comes from.
jack action said:The example of science fairs you give is probably another example of how some adults treat science as a contest to be won rather than fun experiments to do. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that we loose more kids with these ridiculously competitive science fairs than we win some. And most of the ones we win probably want to follow through just because they think scientists gets a better pay at the end of the day.
Be careful with that belief, especially your being an educator. The problem is lack of interest more so than lack of ability.Dr. Courtney said:I am in no way disputing the notion that kids are born with lots of scientific interest or that public education tends to kill it.
I am disputing the notion that kids are born scientists. Being a scientist requires both interest and ability. Most may be born with the interest, but they are not born with the ability, as my posts have emphasized.
symbolipoint said:The problem is lack of interest more so than lack of ability.
symbolipoint said:Be careful with that belief, especially your being an educator. The problem is lack of interest more so than lack of ability.
brainpushups said:Most students like me and enjoy the course, but they dislike the work load (only 3 hrs of homework per week!) and the high expectations. Even when I used to do science fair so that students could pick their own topics most were unwilling to exhibit the kind of care necessary for science.
If people read around them, kids will naturally develop an interest in reading. The more people read, the more the need arise to learn how to read. Just like they learn how to talk by themselves because everybody talks around them. There are no courses for that and I never heard of kids not knowing how to speak because nobody taught them. If everybody uses science (and the scientific method) around them, they will want to learn it as well. This is the biggest lack in children environment. One school teacher interested in science cannot be considered an 'environment'.As long as kids grow up in a literate society, surrounded by people who read, they will learn to read.
Motivated children can go from apparent non-reading to fluent reading very quickly.
These two quotes basically say the same thing and relate to the first one: There must be a need to do something. The worst memories I have from school is related to the fact that I had no clue what I was studying for. Apparently, it would served me later in life, not entirely sure for what though. That is not a motivator at all. There are no needs that relate to me. I want to see and understand the problem and its impact before the solution. I want to see someone resolving the problem in front of me before being excited about how to learn the skill.Children learn to read when reading becomes, to them, a means to some valued end or ends.
jack action said:I must disagree with that kind of speeches that tend towards saying that 'only special people can master science'.
jack action said:If people read around them, kids will naturally develop an interest in reading.
jack action said:If everybody uses science (and the scientific method) around them, they will want to learn it as well.
brainpushups said:Who said that?
Stating only 'a few have what it takes to develop the ability' is dangerously close to saying 'only special people can master the craft'.brainpushups said:Yes, most people have the potential to develop ability but far fewer have the patience and tenacity for it
That is the heart of problem: Science is not used in everyday life. It is considered a waste of time, but it really is not. How can a child ever appreciate it if this is the kind of thinking he or she is surrounded by? This is another post I wrote in another thread that shows how people cope with scientific illiteracy in everyday life.brainpushups said:Most of what is done around students is not science, and scientific thinking is so uncommon in our general experience that special training seems to be required.
jack action said:Stating only 'a few have what it takes to develop the ability' is dangerously close to saying 'only special people can master the craft'.
jack action said:Stating only 'a few have what it takes to develop the ability' is dangerously close to saying 'only special people can master the craft'.
You said:brainpushups said:I said 'most people' not 'special people' or 'a few' people.
I understand what you meant, but the words say literally "most people don't have the qualities to develop the ability [even though they have the potential]" and one could jump easily to the conclusion "Therefore most people will never be able to do it because they don't have what it takes." But, again, I understand what you meant.brainpushups said:Yes, most people have the potential to develop ability but far fewer have the patience and tenacity for it
By saying this you basically put the burden on the students. Actually, we (as a society) failed to show the need for this work to be done. Who can blame them? It is completely insane to do work that doesn't - or you think it doesn't - give you something in return. It's not laziness. It's not lack of tenacity or patience. It's being efficient. And if it is really a 'need', we must being going out of our way to hide it from kids for them not to see it. If science is important, it must be part of everyday life. How can we failed showing that?Dr. Courtney said:But a lot of the US system has empowered students to refuse to do their work
Much of the results of science is throughout modern-day life. Once so well packaged or organized, the consumers or the users hardly give any thought to how the results or parts were understood, developed, and made available.jack action said:By saying this you basically put the burden on the students. Actually, we (as a society) failed to show the need for this work to be done. Who can blame them? It is completely insane to do work that doesn't - or you think it doesn't - give you something in return. It's not laziness. It's not lack of tenacity or patience. It's being efficient. And if it is really a 'need', we must being going out of our way to hide it from kids for them not to see it. If science is important, it must be part of everyday life. How can we failed showing that?
jack action said:By saying this you basically put the burden on the students.
Next Question:Svein said:A thought...
We just got a kitten - and I think kittens are natural experimental physicists. Case in point: The kitten pushes something over the edge of a table. Scrutinizing the object carefully, he finds another object and pushes it over the edge of the table. After doing this with about 30 objects and several tables, he stops.
Question: Has he "discovered gravity" or just concluded that pushing something over the edge makes it "move to the floor"?