How does a photon travel?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Green dwarf
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Photon Sun Travel
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of photons and their travel from the Sun to Alpha Centauri, exploring concepts from quantum mechanics (QM) and quantum field theory (QFT). Participants examine the implications of the lack of a well-defined position for photons and the differences between classical and quantum descriptions of light.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a photon does not have a well-defined position, as there is no position operator in QFT, which challenges classical intuitions about particles.
  • Others argue that while a beam of light takes time to travel from the Sun to Alpha Centauri, the concept of a photon as a particle with a trajectory is misleading.
  • A later reply questions the definitions of "at any location" and "nowhere," suggesting that clarity in terminology is necessary for understanding the discussion.
  • Some participants clarify that the concept of position does not apply to photons, similar to how mass and charge do not apply to mathematical constants like π.
  • One participant explains that in QFT, the fundamental concept is the quantized electromagnetic (EM) field, not a fixed number of distinguishable particles, and that photons represent interactions with this field.
  • It is noted that while the EM field can be approximated by classical EM waves, these waves do not represent photons traveling through space in a classical sense.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of photons and their travel, with no consensus reached on the implications of the lack of a position operator or the relationship between photons and classical light.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of terms like "position" and "particle," as well as the unresolved implications of modeling light as either classical EM waves or quantum fields.

Green dwarf
Messages
55
Reaction score
5
TL;DR
A photon takes 4 years to get from the Sun to Alpha Centauri. 2 years after setting off, is it in one place, multiple places or nowhere?
Is it at a single point half way between the two stars, or is it in a superposition of locations forming a hemispherical shell around the sun, or does it just not exist at all until it interacts with a particle in Alpha Centauri?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Green dwarf said:
Is it at a single point half way between the two stars, or is it in a superposition of locations forming a hemispherical shell around the sun, or does it just not exist at all until it interacts with a particle in Alpha Centauri?
None of the above. A photon in QM, or more precisely in QFT since you need to use that to model photons for this scenario, has no well-defined "position" operator at all. That is simply not a concept that applies here.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Dale
Green dwarf said:
TL;DR Summary: A photon takes 4 years to get from the Sun to Alpha Centauri.
No. A beam of light takes 4 years to get from the sun to alpha centauri, but photons are something completely different.
When you hear that "a photon is a particle of light" or something similar it's natural to think that light moving through space is made up of photons the same way that a river is made up of water molecules moving along the riverbed.... but in fact that model is hopelessly misleading. As @PeterDonis says above, there is no position operator, no position operator means no trajectory, no way of saying that a photon followed this path or that path through space.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: gentzen and Lord Jestocost
Saying the particle has no position operator - is that different from saying it is not at any location or that it is nowhere?
 
Green dwarf said:
Saying the particle has no position operator - is that different from saying it is not at any location or that it is nowhere?
You will need to define "at any location" and "it is nowhere". Also define "the particle". Then perhaps one can answer the question.
 
It means ‘position’ and ‘nowhere’ don’t apply.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PeroK
Green dwarf said:
Saying the particle has no position operator - is that different from saying it is not at any location or that it is nowhere?
It means that it makes no sense to apply the concept of position to it, the same way that it makes no sense to talk about the mass and electric charge of ##\pi##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: phinds and Dale
Green dwarf said:
Saying the particle has no position operator - is that different from saying it is not at any location or that it is nowhere?
Yes.
 
Nugatory said:
the same way that it makes no sense to talk about the mass and electric charge of ##\pi##

Unless ##\pi## stands for pi meson o0)
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: pines-demon and PeroK
  • #10
Green dwarf said:
Saying the particle has no position operator - is that different from saying it is not at any location or that it is nowhere?
The fundamental concept (in QFT) is the quantized EM field. This is in contrast to classical physics, where the fundamental concept is a fixed number of distinguishable particles. The EM field created by a distant star has a given probability of interacting with a detector on Earth. In fact, it results in a fairly well-determined number of interactions per second - depending on the location and characteristics of the detector. Each interaction represents a "photon", which is the quantum of the EM field, and is also called a particle. So, the particles represent the quantized interaction between the EM field and a detector.

There is no concept of a fixed number of photons setting out from Alpha Centauri and travelling in a classical trajectory through space. That is simply not part of the mathematical model in QFT.

What you can say is that the EM field in this case (and in many cases) can be approximated by EM waves travelling through space and obeying Maxwell's equations. I.e. that QFT reduces to classical EM in this case. These waves, however, are not waves of photons. That would make no sense. Instead, they can be modelled as oscillating electric and magnetic fields. Then you are in the realm of modelling light as classical EM waves, rather than as a quantum field.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 64 ·
3
Replies
64
Views
5K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 81 ·
3
Replies
81
Views
7K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
3K
  • · Replies 58 ·
2
Replies
58
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K