How Does Dirac Challenge Classical Mechanics Assumptions in Quantum Theory?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on how Dirac's work in quantum mechanics challenges classical mechanics assumptions, particularly through the introduction of Hamiltonian constraints and the nature of momentum and potential functions. Participants explore the implications of these concepts within the framework of classical and quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the nature of the function \phi mentioned by Dirac, seeking clarification on its role and significance.
  • Another participant suggests that \phi has dimensions similar to the Hamiltonian and is introduced for generality, expressing confusion about its purpose.
  • A different participant indicates that Dirac is referring to Hamiltonian constraints, encouraging others to continue reading for deeper insights.
  • One participant proposes that \phi represents a general potential, linking it to Newtonian mechanics and discussing the relationship between momentum and force.
  • Another participant asserts that Dirac's discussion pertains to non-holonomic constraints, suggesting that examples can be found in Goldstein's book or online resources.
  • There is a clarification regarding the definitions of holonomic and non-holonomic constraints, with some participants discussing their characteristics and differences.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of Dirac's concepts, particularly regarding the function \phi and the nature of constraints. There is no consensus on the implications of these ideas, and multiple competing views remain present in the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the definitions and implications of holonomic versus non-holonomic constraints, indicating a need for further exploration of these concepts. There are also mentions of issues with LaTeX formatting that may have affected the clarity of mathematical expressions.

snoopies622
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Dirac's Lectures on Quantum Mechanics begins with a big chapter on classical mechanics called "The Hamilton Method". Within the first ten pages he says,

"Now in the usual dynamical theory, one makes the assumption that the momenta are independent functions of the velocities, but that assumption is too restrictive for the applications which we are going to make. We want to allow for the possibility of these momenta not being independent functions of the velocities. In that case, there exist certain relations connecting the momentum variables, of the type \phi (q,p) = 0."

What is this \phi function?
 
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Looking ahead it appears to have the same dimensions as the Hamiltonian (energy). I don't know why it's introduced, though, except for generality. I must say the whole chapter seems pretty abstract.
 
If it's about his famous Yeshiva University lectures, then he's speaking of Hamiltonian constraints. I suggest you keep reading him and be prepared to learn some very rare things not described in many books at all.
 
I think you will find that the potential, \phi is a general potential introduced so that we can say:

In Newtonian mechanics force is the gradient of some potential function, say \phi.

Then d\phi is a 1form

Now in order to say rate of change of momentum = force,

either p is covarient

or

d\phi

is contravarient.

That is either

\frac{{d(mv)}}{{dt}} = G\left( {d\phi } \right)

(Newtonian)

or

\frac{{d(G(mv))}}{{dt}} = d\phi

Which is the alternative I think Dirac was discussing.

Edit 1
This is rubbish. It is nothing like what I wrote.
Latex is screwed again. I will try to correct it some other time.

Edit 2
The above is now correct. Why couldn't LaTex display this first time round?
 
Last edited:
Hi snoopies622

I think Dirac is simply saying that his book will deal with non-holonomic constraints... if you have Goldstein's book you can look up some examples OR http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonholonomic_system"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So then, a holonomic constraint is a function of position and time, while a non-holonomic constraint is a function of position and momentum?
 
snoopies622 said:
So then, a holonomic constraint is a function of position and time, while a non-holonomic constraint is a function of position and momentum?
More simply a non-holonomic costraint is any constraint that cannot be reduced (e.g. by integration) to an holonomic one; in general it will be a function of coordinates, momenta and time.
 

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