How Does Gravity Influence Entropy in the Formation of Proto-Stars?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Islam Hassan
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Entropy Gravity
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between gravity, entropy, and the formation of proto-stars, exploring how gravitational collapse affects entropy in the context of astrophysical processes. It includes theoretical considerations and implications for both proto-stars and meteorite formation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether a proto-star has less entropy than the gas cloud from which it formed, seeking to understand how overall entropy can be considered increased during this process.
  • Another participant suggests that heat production during the collapse contributes to the increase in global entropy.
  • A participant posits that describing the motion of tightly-packed atoms in a proto-star may require more information than describing the random diffusion of atoms in a gas cloud, expressing a sense of counter-intuition regarding this idea.
  • It is noted that to fully understand the entropy change, one must consider not only the proto-star but also the heat radiation emitted and the expansion of the outer region of the proto-stellar disc during collapse.
  • A hypothetical scenario is introduced regarding rock fragments collapsing into a meteorite, questioning whether this process would also result in a higher temperature than the original fragments.
  • Another participant responds that the meteorite would need to either be much hotter than its original constituents or emit significant heat over time to account for entropy changes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between gravity, entropy, and temperature changes during the formation of proto-stars and meteorites. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for additional information regarding energy conservation and the dynamics involved in the processes discussed, indicating that assumptions about heat emission and angular momentum conservation are critical to the arguments presented.

Islam Hassan
Messages
237
Reaction score
5
If gravity leads, for example to a gas cloud gradually coalescing into a proto-star, does this proto-star not have less entropy than the gas cloud that engendered it? If yes, then in what sense is overall entropy increased, in what way can we say that entropy globally has been increased via the collapse of the gas cloud into a proto-star?IH
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ElijahRockers
Science news on Phys.org
Islam Hassan said:
in what way can we say that entropy globally has been increased via the collapse of the gas cloud into a proto-star?

heat production
 
So it would require more information to describe the motion of a proto-star's tightly-packed constituent atoms than than the random gaseous diffusion of atoms in a gas cloud? Seems counter-intuitive, which doesn't mean it's wrong though...IH
 
Islam Hassan said:
So it would require more information to describe the motion of a proto-star's tightly-packed constituent atoms than than the random gaseous diffusion of atoms in a gas cloud?

It mainly requires not to consider the resulting proto-star only but also the emission of heat radiation (to ensure conservation of energy) and the expansion of the outer region of the proto-stellar disc (to ensure conservation of angular momentum) during the collapse.
 
Ok, thanks DrS.

What if we consider instead rock fragments drifting in orbit and collapsing into one solid meteorite? No significant radiation, no disk. This meteorite would likewise have to be much hotter than its original constituents?IH
 
Islam Hassan said:
This meteorite would likewise have to be much hotter than its original constituents?

This or significant heat emission (within a sufficiently long period of time).
 
Last edited:
Ok, thanx...
 

Similar threads

High School Does gravity defy the 2nd Law?
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
Graduate Is Entropy Really Independent of Gravity's Influence on Molecular Movement?
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
Graduate As stars contract, why does total entropy rise?
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
Graduate Trying to understand the entropy of different situations....
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
Graduate How does the number of microstates affect the entropy of an isolated system?
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
7K
Undergrad Potential energy and the gravitational field of a collapsing cloud of gas
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
High School Entropy change during the formation and death of stars
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Graduate Does the total entropy of the universe remain constant?
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
11K
Graduate Gravity vs. Entropy: Examining Formation of a Star & 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
8K
Undergrad Gravity and how it starts and stops
  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
5K