How does polarisation affect a lit candle near a Van de Graaff Generator?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter oem7110
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of polarization on a lit candle placed near a Van de Graaff Generator. Participants explore the behavior of the candle flame in response to the generator's electric field, examining both theoretical and experimental aspects of this phenomenon.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants observe that the flame deflects away from the collector when the generator is on, suggesting a flow of ions away from the collector.
  • Others propose that the flame may be attracted to the collector when brought very close, indicating a separation of charges within the flame.
  • One participant suggests that the carbon in the flame is diamagnetic and may be charged similarly to the ions, leading to deflection away from the collector.
  • Another viewpoint is that when the flame is close, particles within it become polarized, resulting in attraction due to inductive effects, similar to how dust is attracted to a charged object.
  • Some participants question the necessity of introducing ionization, arguing that covalent bonding in the combustion process does not imply charge on the carbon atoms.
  • There is a suggestion that the flame may release positive ions into the air, raising questions about the behavior of negative ions in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the mechanisms at play, particularly concerning the roles of charge, polarization, and ionization. The discussion remains unresolved with no consensus on the explanations provided.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the charges present in the flame and the processes occurring during combustion. There are also unresolved questions about the interaction between the flame and the electric field generated by the Van de Graaff Generator.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in experimental physics, electrostatics, and the behavior of charged particles in electric fields may find this discussion relevant.

oem7110
Messages
149
Reaction score
0
"Bring a lit candle near the collector after the Van de Graaff Generator is turned on. The flame will deflect away from the collector. This shows the flow of ions away from the collector. If you bring the flame very close, a portion of the flame will be attracted toward the collector. The ions in the flame are separating by charge."

Does anyone have any suggestions on why this lit candle deflect away from collector and attracted toward the collector? I get no clue.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions
 
Science news on Phys.org
oem7110 said:
"Bring a lit candle near the collector after the Van de Graaff Generator is turned on. The flame will deflect away from the collector. This shows the flow of ions away from the collector. If you bring the flame very close, a portion of the flame will be attracted toward the collector. The ions in the flame are separating by charge."

Does anyone have any suggestions on why this lit candle deflect away from collector and attracted toward the collector? I get no clue.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions

My 5 cents:
The carbon in the flame is diamagnetic. Approaching a neodym magnet close to a candle light, will deflect the flame too, but it will not attract to the magnet if it get close enough.

The ions have a positive charge, and charge the carbon (possibly) with the same charge, and therefor it deflects away. If the flame is close enough it might be attracted to the negative charge very close to the collector(?). I mean if ions is flowing out from the generator, there should be equal opposite charge from where ions came from (??).

I have an "ionizer" that is used to reduce dust in the air. I will try this experiment when I get home :smile:

Vidar
 
Low-Q said:
My 5 cents:
The carbon in the flame is diamagnetic. Approaching a neodym magnet close to a candle light, will deflect the flame too, but it will not attract to the magnet if it get close enough.

The ions have a positive charge, and charge the carbon (possibly) with the same charge, and therefor it deflects away. If the flame is close enough it might be attracted to the negative charge very close to the collector(?). I mean if ions is flowing out from the generator, there should be equal opposite charge from where ions came from (??).

I have an "ionizer" that is used to reduce dust in the air. I will try this experiment when I get home :smile:

Vidar

I would like to know more about the property of the frame, which carbon in the flame is diamagnetic. Is there any positive or negative charges on flame? is frame neutral in charges? What process is going on within the frame? C + O2 = CO2 I guess, any free electrons?
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks you very much for any suggestions
 
There must be two different effects at work here.

I think that, when the flame is close, the particles (bits of carbon and other molecules etc.) become polarised and this works in the same way that dust and pieces of paper are attracted to a charged comb: one polarity of charge is nearer than the other polarity - producing attraction. I think it's called inductive attraction and it's why dust doesn't need to actually carry a charge to be attracted.

When the flame is further away, this electrostatic attraction is much less and the flow of ions away from the generator will 'blow' the flame away.
 
sophiecentaur said:
There must be two different effects at work here.

I think that, when the flame is close, the particles (bits of carbon and other molecules etc.) become polarised and this works in the same way that dust and pieces of paper are attracted to a charged comb: one polarity of charge is nearer than the other polarity - producing attraction. I think it's called inductive attraction and it's why dust doesn't need to actually carry a charge to be attracted.

When the flame is further away, this electrostatic attraction is much less and the flow of ions away from the generator will 'blow' the flame away.

Does it mean that the mass of positive ions from collector physically hit and move the Carbon within flame? so it makes ion blowing the flame away. I don't know whether this is any charges on burning carbon or not. Before carbon becomes CO2, does burning Carbon carry any charges at all?
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
Why would there have to be a charge on the carbon? When C and O atoms combine, a covalent bond forms (no?). Why introduce ionisation? However, polarisation is a much more likely effect. Imho.
 
oem7110 said:
Does anyone have any suggestions on why this lit candle deflect away from collector and attracted toward the collector?
This. http://www.plasma-universe.com/Flame"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
NascentOxygen said:
This. http://www.plasma-universe.com/Flame"

Referring to your link, candle flame is a plasma, which carry positive ions.

When you bring the flame very close, a portion of the flame will be attracted toward the collector. The ions in the flame are separating by charge.Is polarisation is a much more likely effect?

Does anyone have any suggestions how to explain what is going on during polarisation?

Furthermore, will the flame release positive ions into air through smoke? since the candle is neutral iniitially, where does negative ions go in this situation?

Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

How Can I Improve My DIY Van de Graaff Generator to Prevent Charge Leakage?
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Undergrad Measuring Charge on a Van De Graaff Generator: Methods and Obstacles
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
Graduate Quick Question on Van de Graaff Particle Accelerators
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Graduate Van De Graaf Generator & Gauss's Law
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
Troubleshooting a homemade Van de Graaff machine
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
5K
How Does Proximity to a Van de Graaff Generator Affect an Insulated Conductor?
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
Undergrad Let current from a Van de Graff generator flow through you
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
Van der Graaf Generator: Charge, Potential and Redesign Questions
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
Van de Graaff generator questions?
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
7K
Undergrad How does this specific Van de Graaff generator work?
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K