How Does Refraction Affect Perceived Fish Size Underwater?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on how refraction affects the perceived size of fish when viewed underwater. Participants explore the implications of Snell's law, the geometry of light rays, and the orientation of the fish in relation to the water's surface. The scope includes conceptual reasoning and exploratory hypotheses rather than definitive conclusions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the fish appears smaller due to the refraction of light rays, with varying degrees of certainty about how small it will appear.
  • Others question how Snell's law applies to the situation, particularly in relation to the angles of refraction for different points of the fish.
  • One participant notes that the fish's actual size does not change, but its perceived size does, depending on its orientation relative to the water surface.
  • There is a discussion about the need for multiple points of reference (e.g., the head and tail of the fish) to accurately assess size perception.
  • Some participants propose that if the fish is parallel to the water surface, its perceived size remains unaffected, while if it is not, the perception may vary.
  • A later reply suggests that the angular size of the fish can be influenced by the horizontal distance to the fish, adding another layer of complexity to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on how refraction affects perceived size, with no consensus reached on the specifics of the effect or the conditions under which it occurs.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the importance of ray diagrams and the role of light ray angles, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the specific conditions that influence perceived size, such as the fish's orientation and distance from the observer.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying optics, physics, or anyone curious about visual perception in different mediums.

kenth
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fish_under_water.jpg

From This picture, I think the fish will be smaller but the problem is how small will it be?
(Fish "L" is the image of fish "K")
Let ##H## be the depth of fish "K", ##\theta## be the angle of eyes to y-axis and ##n## is the index of refraction of water.
 
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Continue your line of reasoning. What about the picture shows that the fish will appear smaller? How does Snell's law fit into the picture? Hint: If you look at two identical meter sticks, and one appears smaller than the other, what conclusion do you draw and how do you justify drawing it?

Is this a homework problem?
 
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I made this picture myself so I made the fish appeared smaller because the light ray are shorter (I think). Snell's law would be use to solve this question because it has refraction.

This question isn't homework. There is solved problem about the distance that image move relative to the fish but I'm also curious about the size of the image.
 
kenth said:
I'm also curious about the size of the image.
You have drawn rays for a single point of the fish. You need at least two points, to account for its size.
 
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The fish is the same size whether it's in air or water. The size it appears, however, is different.
 
A issue with your drawing is the angle of refraction of the 2 parallel rays from the eye should remain parallel in the water, Why do they have different angles of refraction.
My gut tells me that if the fish is parallel with the surface of the water its size will be unaffected as the light rays are traversing the same amount of water. If the fish is not parallel with the surface then it is a different game.
 
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kenth said:
I made this picture myself so I made the fish appeared smaller because the light ray are shorter (I think). Snell's law would be use to solve this question because it has refraction.

This question isn't homework. There is solved problem about the distance that image move relative to the fish but I'm also curious about the size of the image.
The flat surface of the water will refract the light rays emanating from the two ends of the object the same way and as predicted by Snell's law. You need a curved surface such as a lens to see a differential effect between the two ends.

You must be familiar with ray diagrams. An arrow placed in front of a converging lens at distance larger than the focal length appears diminished because the rays emanating from different points along its length refract at larger angles the farther they are from the optical axis. In this case, the angular separation between the ends will be smaller with the lens than without and you conclude that the arrow looks smaller. If, however, you place a thick sheet of glass with flat parallel faces between you and the object, then the object will appear the same size although slightly displaced relative to its original position.

You may wish to try this experiment at home. Put an object, say a shiny butter knife, at the bottom of a deep pot. Take a picture. Fill the pot with water and take another picture being super careful to ensure that your phone (or camera) does not change position or angle relative to the object. Compare the two pictures. I will be curious to see the pictures if you actually perform this experiment.
 
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Integral said:
My gut tells me that if the fish is parallel with the surface of the water its size will be unaffected as the light rays are traversing the same amount of water. If the fish is not parallel with the surface then it is a different game.
Assume the fish is horizontal and facing away from you. The effect is most marked in that orientation.
The rays from the tail of the fish comes at you from a different angle than the rays from the head so Snell will affect the two sets of rays differently. Question is whether the effect is greater or less for the head and tail. It's not hard to draw a diagram and produce two images - one of head and one of tail (Using Snell) and the differences in angles will show magnification or reduction.
If you also do the experiment then you can confirm the theory.
 
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Integral said:
My gut tells me that if the fish is parallel with the surface of the water its size will be unaffected as the light rays are traversing the same amount of water.
The angular size of the fish can be affected. Which way the effect goes, depends on the horizontal distance to the fish.
 

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