How far will a piece from an explosive projectile fly?

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The discussion revolves around calculating how far a piece from an explosive projectile will fly after it explodes at its highest point. Participants debate the applicability of conservation of momentum and energy, with a focus on whether the system can be considered closed despite external forces like gravity. It is suggested that horizontal momentum is conserved, allowing for the determination of the horizontal distance traveled by the fragments. The center of mass of the system is also discussed, with the consensus that it will move horizontally at a constant velocity, leading to a conclusion about where the center of mass lands. Ultimately, the problem is framed as a simplified homework question, emphasizing the need for assumptions about initial velocities to arrive at a solution.
  • #31
jbriggs444 said:
But it provides no assurance that the center of mass is in free fall all the way to the ground.
We could change the problem slightly. Suppose there is a very deep hole in the ground, so that the vertically falling fragment reaches ground-level but then continues (free-falling) down the hole.

While both fragments are in free-fall, their CoM is in free-fall all the way down to the ground (and potentially through the ground!)
 
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  • #32
vcsharp2003 said:
If we know that com will take the projectile path as if the explosion hadn't occurred, then can we not say with certainty that when com hits ground, then both exploded parts must also hit it otherwise the com would be above ground level due to the line joining the two parts being slanted to the ground?
Yes, the fact that the CoM hits the ground is no guarantee that the two fragments will hit the ground at the same time. Here is the mathematical proof that compares the unexploded trajectory with the trajectories of the to equal fragment.
Let ##V_{0x},~V_{0y}## be the components of the initial velocity. The maximum height where the explosion occurs is ##H=\dfrac{V_{0y}^2}{2g}##. The time of flight for the unexploded projectile is ##T_{\!f}=\dfrac{2V_{0y}}{g}## and the time elapsed until the explosion occurs is ##\frac{1 }{2}T_{\!f} = \dfrac{V_{0y}}{g}##.
Now assume that when the explosion breaks up the projectile into two equal pieces, piece A falls vertically to the ground it has initial velocity ##\vec v_A=\{0,-v_y\}## while piece B has velocity ##\vec v_B=\{2V_{0x},v_y\}## in accordance with momentum conservation. The vertical position of the CoM is $$Y_{\text{cm}}=\frac{\frac{m}{2}y_A+\frac{m}{2}y_B}{m}=\frac{1}{2}\left(H-v_yt-\frac{1}{2}gt^2\right)+\frac{1}{2}\left(H+v_yt-\frac{1}{2}gt^2\right).$$With ##H=\frac{V_{0y}^2}{2g}##, this becomes, ##Y_{\text{cm}}=\frac{V_{0y}^2}{2g}-\frac{1}{2}gt^2## which gives the time of flight for the CoM after the explosion, ##T_{\text{cm}}=\frac{V_{0y}}{g}=\frac{1}{2}T_{\!f}## as expected. The CoM will land horizontally at the same spot as the unexploded projectile as long as the fragments are in free fall for at least time ##\frac{1}{2}T_{\!f}.##

We can now find where the pieces are vertically when the CoM lands.
$$\begin{align} & y_A=\frac{V_{0y}^2}{2g}-v_y \frac{V_{0y}}{g}-\frac{1}{2}g\left(\frac{V_{0y}}{g}\right)^2=-v_y \frac{V_{0y}}{g}\nonumber \\ & y_B=\frac{V_{0y}^2}{2g}+v_y \frac{V_{0y}}{g}-\frac{1}{2}g\left(\frac{V_{0y}}{g}\right)^2=+v_y \frac{V_{0y}}{g}\nonumber \end{align}.$$This shows that if we know that the CoM hits the ground at the same spot as the unexploded projectile, then the two fragments will hit the ground at the same time only if the explosion imparts no vertical momentum to them (##v_y=0##). It also shows that for the CoM to land at the same spot as the unexploded projectile when ##v_y\neq 0##, fragment A must fall through a hole in the ground as @Steve4Physics has argued.

Now consider the hole-in-the-ground suggestion by @Steve4Physics and assume that fragment A keeps falling through it until the fragment B lands. We know that the CoM lands at the same spot as the unexploded projectile at horizonttal distance ##\Delta X_{\text{cm}}=V_{0x}(\frac{1}{2}T_{\!f})=\dfrac{V_{0x}V_{0y}}{g}## from the point of the explosion. To find where fragment B lands, which is the goal of this problem, first we find its time of flight, $$0=\frac{V_{0y}^2}{2g}+v_y t_B-\frac{1}{2}gt_B^2\implies t_B=\frac{v_y+\sqrt{V_{0y}^2+v_y^2 }}{g}.$$Then we can find where the second fragment lands horizontally from the point of the explosion, $$\Delta X_B=2V_{0x}t_B=\frac{2V_{0x}\left(v_y+\sqrt{V_{0y}^2+v_y^2 }\right)}{g}.$$It should be clear that unless we know ##v_y##, we cannot predict where the second fragment will land. If we are not given ##v_y## explicitly we can infer that it is zero with statements such as
(a) Both fragments land at the same time;
(b) Fragment A drops straight down with zero initial vertical velocity;
(c) Fragment B has zero vertical initial velocity.
Lacking such statements, as is the case here, we have to assume that ##v_y=0##, otherwise we cannot answer the question.

Summary
This question can be answered directly by observing that fragment B takes the same amount amount of time to come down as it takes to go up to max height. Since its speed is doubled at max height, it must cover twice the horizontal distance during the down trip.

On edit: Corrected subscript typos and added the summary.
 
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  • #33
kuruman said:
Yes, the fact that the CoM hits the ground is no guarantee that the two fragments will hit the ground at the same time.
So, what was wrong in my logic presented in post#27? I am still trying to figure out where in my logic I overlooked some other facts.

I am unable to come up with a scenario/example where they do not hit the ground simultaneously.

From my logic in post#27, it would automatically follow that the vertical part starts with 0 initial velocity and the other part starts with horizontal velocity, since only then would the fragments reach the ground at the same time as com of whole mass.
 
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  • #34
vcsharp2003 said:
So, what was wrong in my logic presented in post#27? I am still trying to figure out where in my logic I overlooked some other facts.
A = vertically falling fragment (say with non-zero intial vertical velocity).
B = other fragment.

I think the fact that you overlooked in Post #27 is that if A hits the ground first, a new external force acts on A. As a result, the CoM no longer follows its original trajectory.

For the CoM to follow its original trajectory, we need (for example) a deep hole in the ground - so A continues (in free fall) down the hole. Then no new extenal force acts on A while B is also in free fall.
 
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  • #35
Steve4Physics said:
I think the fact that you overlooked in Post #27 is that if A hits the ground first, a new external force acts on A. As a result, the CoM no longer follows its original trajectory.
And above would happen only if fragment A would explode off with a non-zero vertical velocity. Is that correct?
 
  • #36
vcsharp2003 said:
And above would happen only if fragment A would explode off with a non-zero vertical velocity. Is that correct?
Yes, that's correct.

And if that happened, then of course both A and B would have non-zero initial vertical velocities due to conservation of momentum in the vertical direction.
 
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  • #37
Steve4Physics said:
A = vertically falling fragment (say with non-zero intial vertical velocity).
B = other fragment.

I think the fact that you overlooked in Post #27 is that if A hits the ground first, a new external force acts on A. As a result, the CoM no longer follows its original trajectory.

For the CoM to follow its original trajectory, we need (for example) a deep hole in the ground - so A continues (in free fall) down the hole. Then no new extenal force acts on A while B is also in free fall.
This problem really doesn't need any com formula or com concepts to solve it. Just projectile concepts and law of conservation of momentum would yield the correct answer. We can simply assume that the fragments are point masses and not bother about how the com of fragments moves after explosion.
 
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  • #38
vcsharp2003 said:
This problem really doesn't need any com formula or com concepts to solve it. Just projectile concepts and law of conservation of momentum would yield the correct answer. We can simply assume that the fragments are point masses and not bother about how the com of fragments moves after explosion.
There is often more than one way to tackle the same problem. And it's worth considering which is the best option.

The original question almost certainly intended for there to be zero initial vertical velocity components from the explosion. One way to solve the problem is then:

1. Realise that fragments (A and B) must land at the same time.

2. Realise that the CoM lands where the unexploded projectile would have landed, 1000m from A, therefore 2000m from X.

3. Realise that the CoM is midway between A and B. Therefore B lands a distance (2000m+1000m =) 3000m from X. Answer ‘e’.

Personally, that's my approach of choice.
 
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  • #39
Steve4Physics said:
There is often more than one way to tackle the same problem. And it's worth considering which is the best option.

The original question almost certainly intended for there to be zero initial vertical velocity components from the explosion. One way to solve the problem is then:

1. Realise that fragments (A and B) must land at the same time.

2. Realise that the CoM lands where the unexploded projectile would have landed, 1000m from A, therefore 2000m from X.

3. Realise that the CoM is midway between A and B. Therefore B lands a distance (2000m+1000m =) 3000m from X. Answer ‘e’.

Personally, that's my approach of choice.
I think the com approach is shorter and therefore a shortcut, versus the approach using projectile concepts + law of conservation of momentum.

But the shortcut approach would not work when the first fragment fires of with non-zero vertical velocity. Then, only the other approach would work. But, I guess this state of affairs could only happen if explosion occurred during the projectile's upward ascent rather than its highest point.
 
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  • #40
vcsharp2003 said:
But the shortcut approach would not work when the first fragment fires of with non-zero vertical velocity.
No, that is not the correct criterion.

The shortcut approach would not work when the first fragment fires off with a non-zero vertical velocity relative to the second fragment.

It does not matter whether this happens during the upward part of the trajectory or the downward part or right in the middle. As long as the fragments have equal vertical velocities, they will land simultaneously.
 
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  • #41
jbriggs444 said:
The shortcut approach would not work when the first fragment fires off with a non-zero vertical velocity relative to the second fragment.
And why would the shortcut not be applicable in the special case you mentioned? Is it because the two fragments would land at different instants of time?
 
  • #42
vcsharp2003 said:
And why would the shortcut not be applicable in the special case you mentioned? Is it because the two fragments would land at different instants of time?
The shortcut is applicable if the fragments land simultaneously.
 
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  • #43
vcsharp2003 said:
And why would the shortcut not be applicable in the special case you mentioned? Is it because the two fragments would land at different instants of time?
Please read post #33. It shows that the necessary and sufficient condition for the two fragments to land at equal distances from the CoM is that their post-explosion time of flight be the same.

Also, one can do this problem in one's head as indicated #33. It is, of course, applicable only if there is no transfer of vertical momentum between the fragments.
kuruman said:
This question can be answered directly by observing that fragment B takes the same amount amount of time to come down as it takes to go up to max height. Since its speed is doubled at max height, it must cover twice the horizontal distance during the down trip.
Personally, I think I have said all there is to be said in this thread and say no more.
 
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  • #44
The OP has been answered, so we can close this thread.

Thanks to all that have contributed.
 
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