Programs How Honest Are Students About Their Major GPA?

[JasonRox]

hmm granted we are polling from a very select sample, but this poll seems to reflect more on the fact that grades are being inflated more than anything else. If you have a 3.9 or a 4.0 it means that your school is not grading you hard enough and is in fact holding you back,if you take into account that a lot of the people here come from top institutions already, then the fact that the largest subgroup in the poll had between a 3.9 and a 4.0 is very indicative that the system is broken, and isn't challenging people enough.

personally I think anything above a 3.7 ceases to be indicative of performance and shows that the institution is failing the student in that they aren't giving them enough challenge.

I agree. I should probably have a 3.5. If I had that, it would force me to work harder, and get a 3.7 or whatever. I would gain a lot more out of it this way.

 

[Ki Man]

It looks like PF is made up of overacheivers

 

[JSBeckton]

I can do bad in classes in university too. I have 2 C's, but I'm sure I understand more than the fellows with A's.

How can you have a 4.0 when you admit that you sometimes do bad in university classes and have 2 C's?

 

[JasonRox]

How can you have a 4.0 when you admit that you sometimes do bad in university classes and have 2 C's?

Isn't a 4.0 an A average?

That's what I have.

 

[JSBeckton]

Isn't a 4.0 an A average?

That's what I have.

I seriously doubt it. Are you claimimg that you have straight A's through 2 1/2 years and now you have 2 C's? Whats the chances of that, you have 2 C's but never get B's. If that's the case, I suspect you may be in a downward spiral.

I agree that if someone who gets 2 C's in one semester can have a 4.0 then the school is not challenging the students. In fact, I think that if any student gets a 4.0 they were not challenged to their limit and therefore received an inferior education.

 

[BobG]

I'm not familiar with the US education system, but how could one achieve 102.5% in a maths exam? Is this not a fundamentally flawed method of marking?

That's grade inflation at its best. Call the hardest couple of questions bonus questions so the most often missed questions don't lower anyone's grade, they just increase the grade of the smartest few in the class.

Or, alternatively, quite a few teachers take the most commonly missed question from one test and make it the bonus on the next test. At least that does serve a purpose, even if it inflates grades.

Grade inflation at its worst is when students get to toss out their lowest test score. That helps the worst students squeak by to a level they might not be prepared for.

The other grade inflation, in high school at least, is making an A in an honors class worth 5 pts, a B worth 4 pts, etc. It reduces the risk and encourages more students to push themselves in a tougher class, which is good, even if it does inflate grades.

I had a GPA in the high C or low B range in high school and graduated in the bottom 25% of my class (but it was a good school, though). My first stint in college, I missed straight A's by one stupid question, in Spanish class, no less. My second stint, I had about a B average. My third stint, I probably had a C average (but that was pulled down by couple of courses I absolutely despised, but had to take because every university has to have a couple of courses unique only to them just to make it tougher to transfer credits - of course, since those courses don't transfer, they don't count anyway ). My last stint has been all A's.

Aside from the fact that anyone dropping out that many times obviously lacked seriousness about school, and the fact that, eventually, one gets to a point where all the courses are interesting vs. checking a box, grading is a lot easier than it was in my first stint. Today, it's hard to find a teacher that wouldn't help get you over the edge to the next higher grade if you only missed it by one question.

But, it is true that the only person that's ever going to care about your GPA is you. I'd hire the person with the 34DD over a person with a 4.0 GPA average any day.

Wait, that didn't come out right. The person with the 34DD is MathIsHard and I'd hire her any day!

 

[cristo]

That's grade inflation at its best. Call the hardest couple of questions bonus questions so the most often missed questions don't lower anyone's grade, they just increase the grade of the smartest few in the class.

Or, alternatively, quite a few teachers take the most commonly missed question from one test and make it the bonus on the next test. At least that does serve a purpose, even if it inflates grades.

Wow, I never knew that happened! The whole point of an exam is to test a person's knowledge of the subject, so taking the question on the *hardest* material out of an exam seems ludicrous! The exams at my university tend to have quesions with parts which vary in difficulty, such that the last parts of each question are meant to test the brightest students (i.e. the ones who have a firm grasp on the material)

I've never heard of a person who's scored 100% on an exam, but you do tend to see some scores in the 90% range. I much rather to have a difficult exam over an easy one since, if you score 90 odd percent in a hard exam, you know that you've understood the material.

Grade inflation at its worst is when students get to toss out their lowest test score. That helps the worst students squeak by to a level they might not be prepared for.

Something like this happened when I was in college (high school). If one had underachieved in a certain exam in the lower year of college, they could retake it the next year, and thus bump up their score. Seems a bit wrong really, but then I suppose some would argue that it is fair!

 

[mathwonk]

Jason Rox, I urge you to try to do something to challenge yourself more, before it is too late.

I spent a long time in my youth saying things like " well there is no telling how good I could be if I only worked, why I already understand the material better than most fellows with good grades."

I bragged about skipping class, then reading the other guy's notes in one night, and passing the exam.

Then I began to slide down the slippery slope of poor performance, and only after a hard period did I realize I was holding myself back by not really trying to see just how good i could be when I did work hard.

When I did work as hard as I could, I was still not at all the genius I had pretended to myself to be, but happily I was certainly a lot better than I had been when I was goofing off.

And eventually I had a lot more fun. the competition out there is terrific. if you have any chance of really being good, you need to do all you can to realize that potential.

When I got back into school and started working, my first grade was sort of an A+ in a non honors course. After celebrating briefly, as I think I said elsewhere, my next step was to get back in the honors sequence and take some harder courses that I could not ace so easily, and try to ace them too.

It took a few semesters, but

thats when i started moving up the ladder toward the level of the really strong students.

good luck!

 

[JasonRox]

Jason Rox, I urge you to try to do something to challenge yourself more, before it is too late.

I spent a long time in my youth saying things like " well there is no telling how good I could be if I only worked, why I already understand the material better than most fellows with good grades."

I bragged about skipping class, then reading the other guy's notes in one night, and passing the exam.

Then I began to slide down the slippery slope of poor performance, and only after a hard period did I realize I was holding myself back by not really trying to see just how good i could be when I did work hard.

When I did work as hard as I could, I was still not at all the genius I had pretended to myself to be, but happily I was certainly a lot better than I had been when I was goofing off.

And eventually I had a lot more fun. the competition out there is terrific. if you have any chance of really being good, you need to do all you can to realize that potential.

When I got back into school and started working, my first grade was sort of an A+ in a non honors course. After celebrating briefly, as I think I said elsewhere, my next step was to get back in the honors sequence and take some harder courses that I could not ace so easily, and try to ace them too.

It took a few semesters, but

thats when i started moving up the ladder toward the level of the really strong students.

good luck!

I'm working on it.

It's very difficult being on my own though. I'll pull through.

 

[mathwonk]

tackle one of the great books recommended here,like milnors morse theory, or something else/ well be glad to recommend if you say what interests you and at what level. you are obviously very gifted, and you have a bright future.

 

[JasonRox]

tackle one of the great books recommended here,like milnors morse theory, or something else/ well be glad to recommend if you say what interests you and at what level. you are obviously very gifted, and you have a bright future.

Thanks.

We do have a great professor at our school. He helps me a lot, and he gives great directions. Open to talk to, and everything.

I picked up a book on Differential Forms. I guess I'll read that for a bit. I'm also going to work on finishing Munkres Topology textbook.

We will see where it all leads.

 

[mathwonk]

we were recommended by ed brown jr to read milnors topology from the differentiable viewpoint in first or second year grad school. it is wonderful. a better starting place than the morse theory book.

there is also a detailed and beautiful version of this material written for undergrads by guillemin and pollack, but milnor is the master.

the undergrad version has complete proofs, i.e. more trees, while milnors is more forest.

you might try reading milnors book, topology from the differentiable viewpoint , and bring questions to your prof.

 

[JasonRox]

we were recommended by ed brown jr to read milnors topology from the differentiable viewpoint in first or second year grad school. it is wonderful. a better starting place than the morse theory book.

there is also a detailed and beautiful version of this material written for undergrads by guillemin and pollack, but milnor is the master.

the undergrad version has complete proofs, i.e. more trees, while milnors is more forest.

you might try reading milnors book, topology from the differentiable viewpoint , and bring questions to your prof.

What do you mean by the differentiable viewpoint?

 

[mathwonk]

well topology is the study of spaces on which only continuity makes sense, while differential topology is the study of spaces on which derivatives also make sense. topology from the differentiable viewpoint is the use of derivatives to draw conclusions which hold for the topology.

i.e. add more structure, get more hold on the situation, but with the goal of obtaining more fundamental information. the poincare conjecture is a prime example. it is a question posed only about the topology of a 3 manifold, but it was solved by using differentiable tools.

i.e. the goal was to show every simply connected compact 3 manifold is topologically a sphere. but it was shown that every such manifold could also be given a differentiable metric structure. then in 1984 hamilton proved that if a differentiable 3 manifold with a metric was also positively curved, then topologically it is a sphere.

hence one could prove the purely topological poincare conjecture by showing that every metric on a compact simply conected 3 manifold can be deformed into one with positive curvature.

i do not know if this is the way the actual proof by perelman went, but it would be plausible.

 

[JasonRox]

well topology is the study of spaces on which only continuity makes sense, while differential topology is the study of spaces on which derivatives also make sense. topology from the differentiable viewpoint is the use of derivatives to draw conclusions which hold for the topology.

i.e. add more structure, get more hold on the situation, but with the goal of obtaining more fundamental information. the poincare conjecture is a prime example. it is a question posed only about the topology of a 3 manifold, but it was solved by using differentiable tools.

i.e. the goal was to show every simply connected compact 3 manifold is topologically a sphere. but it was shown that every such manifold could also be given a differentiable metric structure. then in 1984 hamilton proved that if a differentiable 3 manifold with a metric was also positively curved, then topologically it is a sphere.

hence one could prove the purely topological poincare conjecture by showing that every metric on a compact simply conected 3 manifold can be deformed into one with positive curvature.

i do not know if this is the way the actual proof by perelman went, but it would be plausible.

Is that like Differential Topology?

Sounds interesting as it is.

 

[mathwonk]

yes. and milnor is an absolute master. so he derives the maximum results from the minimum of theoretical machinery.

 

[mathwonk]

heres the amazon site for milnors book

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_...milnor&Go.x=10&Go.y=7&Go=Go&tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[JasonRox]

Looks, good.

Since it is an old textbook, my school probably has it. I'll check it out and read the preface. That will tell me lots about it.

So, what exactly is Morse Theory about?

 

[mathwonk]

check out my posts 17, 21 of the thread how many mathematics do we need?(how to obtain topological information from critical ponts of a single function. eg. any compact manifold having a smooth function with just one max and one min, is a sphere.)

 

[JasonRox]

check out my posts 17, 21 of the thread how many mathematics do we need?


(how to obtain topological information from critical ponts of a single function. eg. any compact manifold having a smooth function with just one max and one min, is a sphere.)

No problem.

I have another question. What are your thoughts about Gauge Theory?

It might be possible to get a research position in this area, but I'd like to know more about it. The professor I talk to explained it as basically string theory is a part of gauge theory. The mathematical side of it. And, how it tries to "compress" extra dimensions while trying to keep the remaining dimensions "smooth" and "undisturbed". I use quotes because I don't know the real definitions, but the idea is there.

What are your thoughts?

 

[mathwonk]

i do not know anything about gauge theory but there are some experts in my department, like gordana matic. if i had to guess, i would say it involves the donaldson theory of moduli spaces of bundles on algebraic surfaces, but maybe not. ill check it out.

 

[JasonRox]

i do not know anything about gauge theory but there are some experts in my department, like gordana matic. if i had to guess, i would say it involves the donaldson theory of moduli spaces of bundles on algebraic surfaces, but maybe not. ill check it out.

Yeah, it does involve moduli spaces of bundles.

I'll keep looking into it.

I personally think Algebraic Topology seems the most interesting for me. I read into Algebraic K-Theory, and it seems like a great topic.

 

[mathwonk]

It seems a difficult topic to make progress in as well, but so what? you are young and strong.

 

[JSBeckton]

Does anyone have a reference on a national poll or survey of this type?

 

[mathwonk]

a gpa survey?

 

[JSBeckton]

a gpa survey?

Yes, or a statistical study of some sort.

 

[mr_coffee]

Speaking of grade inflation,

My calc III, you can get an 85% and get an A. You can get a 55% and get a C. I wish there were more professors like this guy!

 

[mathwonk]

the only survey figures i recall on gpa's are from my alma mater harvard. a few years ago the harvard alumni magazine reported that the average grade at harvard in the 1960's was about a B-/C+, and in the 1990's was about an A-. In that same period the average SAT score of harvard students had gone down.

 

[JSBeckton]

I am not worried about grades changing so much over time, even thought that's prettty drastic and should be looked into. But I am not in competition for jobs with people with years of experience.

I think that the bigger problem is that the average grade at one school could be much lower than the average grade at another and when students are first comming out of school an employer will have no way of of knowing who was more successful in school (if that is a criteria that they choose to use). I think that the average grade should eb public knowledge, that way an employer could have a way to make a better comparison an an already sketchy grading system.

I know that grades don't count for much but when you work very hard and get good grades at a tough school you should at least be able to distinguish yourself from those with easier grading systems.

Just my opinion.

 

[mathwonk]

that was apparently the justification for raising grades at harvard. the rationale was that harvard is a harder school, so grades should be higher.

but i think that people understood that harvard was a harder school and inflating the grades only lowred the respect people had for harvard.

 

[JSBeckton]

Thought I'd give this a bump since the subject has come up again.

 

[Juche]

My current CGPA is 3.23 and I am doing my last semester for BS biochemistry at IU. I have never really cared about my grades and figured if/when I go to grad school I'll have several years of work experience under my belt, letters of recommendation and 2 years of research as an undergrad in cancer research (we submitted an abstract to the ACS for publication, no idea what happened to it) and it won't matter what my GPA was, so long as it was over 3.0. Why work my ass off memorizing every minute detail and study all night, when I can just do the minimum to not fail? Gradewise I'd consider IU a moderate to moderately easy school. In quantum chemistry I got about a 56% and got a B in the class. I have gotten several Cs in college. Physics 2 & Calc 2 - C. Calc 3 - D+, analytical lecture, lab and thermodynamics lecture - C+.

I found out before this semseter that if I get a 3.3 CGPA I graduate with honors (or distinction) something like that. So so far this semester I have a B+ in 2 of my classes, A- in two others and a bad grade in a third (maybe a B-). Ah well. That plus 9 hours of undergrad research (that I should get 9 credit hours of an A in) may put me over the top. At least I actually care about my grades this semseter.

I do not deserve an honors degree, no matter what happens. I'm actually disappointed in how crappy the work ethic of myself and the other students I work with is. I don't believe in failing 50-80% of students out of college, but something should be done. We are so lazy where I am. Only a tiny fraction of the people I know strike me as truly dedicated and knowing what they are doing. The rest of us are either winging it or just trying to get the highest grade possible so we can get into grad school and forget everything we learned as an undergrad.

 

[Llama77]

to me all GPA means is you can read a book better than the next guy. I know plenty of people who have much much higher gpa's compared to me and they are all dopes.

 

[EP]

I have heard this before, maybe the GPA's were lower in the 60's because of Veitnam. Maybe its just a conspiracy theory but I've heard that colleges back then made it harder to stay in college due to the draft.

 

[colin.mcenroe]

Well, think about this, who is going to be attracted to a school that fails a bunch of people? It looks good on national reports to have high completion/gpa/whatever other indicators. It might not be great for integrity, but business is business.

 

[leright]

to me all GPA means is you can read a book better than the next guy. I know plenty of people who have much much higher gpa's compared to me and they are all dopes.

well, reading and comprehending scientific literature is an important skill for a scientist to have...

But I agree that there are a lot of people with really high GPAs that haven't got a clue. GPA is meaningless a lot of the time, but you still need a decent GPA.

 

[eaboujaoudeh]

all of u are 3.9-4.00 students ! i thought the curve always bulges in the middle not at the 4.00 level ! GOD
anyway I'm a very smart intelligent student...so were the teachers telling me while they are putting C- as grades for me. guess they wanted to see me in class more often..

 

[eaboujaoudeh]

well, reading and comprehending scientific literature is an important skill for a scientist to have...

But I agree that there are a lot of people with really high GPAs that haven't got a clue. GPA is meaningless a lot of the time, but you still need a decent GPA.

i used to teach students with a GPA less than mine ! but teachers are such freaks when it comes to attendances. why should i get a C when my grades a lot higher than the class average, so what i didn't get the book or come to class what does it matter !

 

[Cyrus]

to me all GPA means is you can read a book better than the next guy. I know plenty of people who have much much higher gpa's compared to me and they are all dopes.

Then why don't you raise your GPA?

 

[Corneo]

I would like to just say that I got offered a job with very good starting salary. They contacted me because I had a good strong GPA. That got my foot in the door.

 

[Benny]

to me all GPA means is you can read a book better than the next guy. I know plenty of people who have much much higher gpa's compared to me and they are all dopes.

To me, such a statement is indicative of a self proclaimed genius with a very poor work ethic. Simply saying that you're very capable is one thing. But having the discipline to put in the hard yards required to enable you to demonstrate your ability is on an entirely different level.